L-girder vs. open grid: what's best for my situation?

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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First post, so please bear with me.

I’m finally starting on my first layout after many years of wanting one. I’ve read about L-girder and standard open grid construction, as well as some of the newer foam-based techniques. But I’m having a hard time knowing which is best for my situation, so I’d like some advice.

The layout will be a 5x15 foot island, based on the good 'ol Atlas Grand Trunk Eastern plan: a double-track oval with a yard and an inner switch lead. Unlike the GTE, I’m going to use some of the extra length and width for a double-ended yard on the inside of the oval. The other side of the oval will be industrial switching.

Setting is urban, in Kansas City, and loosely based on the Kansas City Terminal Ry. Even though there are some bluffs in the prototype, and tracks at several levels, for my first try at a layout I don’t intend to have any grades.

For subroadbed I plan on using 2" blue foam over 1/4" birch ply. Track will be Kato Unitrack, at least for the main line.

So now the dilemma. I’d like to be able to “split” the layout into lengthwise halves, or possibly even quarters, should the need arise. Not on a regular basis, just as a one-shot in case I need to move, or the hobby effort is a success and I want to convert it into a round-the-walls layout. The room would support at least a 12x15 layout, but I don’t want to bite off to much right away. OTOH, I don’t want a 4x8 as I want to have 24" minimums with easements on the main, and run decent-length trains.

So, should I build the framework as “modules” now or worry about things later? What will be easier to split should the need arise, open grid or L-girder? Any other tips or advice on dealing with this “I might need to split it” situation?

Oh, and Merry Christmas, every one! :slight_smile:

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Gannet - Welcome to Trains.com! [C):-)]

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Facing a similar situation I decided to go with open grid construction. It just seemed easier with foam over thin plywood. I bolted the “boxes” together with carriage bolts.

Lefty

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I vote for the grid, too, but would skip the foam. Instead, use heavier plywood (1/2" or 3/4"). When you build the framing, make it as modules in whatever size might be convenient for either moving or for re-arranging as an around-the-room type layout. That could be in the form of 30" wide sections of appropriate length. Frame each “module” on all four sides, then clamp or screw them together. If you apply the plywood to each section separately, all you’d need do to separate the benchwork is remove the screws or clamps. Your track, of course, would need to be cut or taken up.

You could also use open grid, which is grid-style framing with no table top. Instead, the track is on roadbed (usually cut-out plywood or built-up spline). Where you want structures or something like a yard, plywood, cut-to-suit, can be used.

If you think that the layout might evolve into an around the room type, the first one, with the track removed, is more easily adapted. The second type could be re-done, too, but you’d likely have to remove both the track and the roadbed.

Wayne

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I would build 4 open grid modules each with its own legs. Build 2 of them 2.5x8 ft and 2 of them 2.5x7 ft. I would put 1/2 " plywood on top and let it be the sub roadbed. These will be easy to reuse in a future reconfiguration. Use screws not glue as you may need to modify one or more after reconfiguration.

My current layout (12x31 ft) is built from modules from my last two layouts, which varied from 1.5 to 3 feet wide and 6.5 to 10 feet long with most 2.3 by 8 ft. Reusing the modules saved time and materials. I did need to build a couple of small fill in sections and one 1.6 x 8 ft module was rebuilt to 1x8 ft.

Enjoy

Paul

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Hi Gannet

to answer your question, since the layout you have chosen is flat as a pancake i would probably think about foam on an open frame. I like to have lots of scenery below the tracks, like rivers and roads so my choice for L-girders would probably come from that.

You are pretty new to this hobby and 15 x5 means that you will encouter reach-in issues. You should be able to walk around at least 3 sides of your layout, which means the space it actually takes will be about 15 x 8. The whole layout will be way to heavy to place against the wall when not in use. Reaching further then 30" is beyond every-ones possibilities. BTW you should think about building your layout between navel or armpit level.

One more unasked advise: Since you are considering building your layout in sections you could make them about 6x2. Bolted together in a donut form (with a central operating pit) you will have no reach-in problems beside being able to easily accommodate a 24" radius. Being unable to watch trains at the other side of your layout is one more plus.

One of the methods to build a layout can be found in 102 Realistic Track Plans on page 67 , grids on girders. Andy Sperandeo proposes to build box grids supported by L-girders. A neat system for sections. Sections do not have standard ends, so they must be bolted together in a specific order. Modules have standard ends and can be used at random order.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Paul

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Welcome to the Forums. [#welcome]

Use a box frame. (L-girder will not work for a layout that will be moved without a lot of advance planning.) Four sections as mentioned. My sections are 2 ft by 7 foot, 1/4 inch ply on top and one inch blue foam on that. The sections are bolted together with carriage bolts.

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Since it’s going to be an island, I vote for the open grid, as well. If you’re going to lay any track on foam, though, I’d skip the plywood and use the cookie cutter method for laying track. The cookie cutter method uses strips of plywood as the subroadbed to attach your track to. If you use foam, it’s a real pain to drill holes in the plywood later to run your feeder wires to the track. Don’t ask how I know this. [banghead]

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What tools do you have to work with ?

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The LION has built three layouts since moving to North Dakota almost 30 years ago. You have to understand the LIONS are 1) Cheap; and 2) Limited in Resources.

His first layout was built on two ping-pong tables set end to end. These were not the flimsy kind bought in stores, but were home-made in our own shops (left over from the days when we ran a school here). I liked the flat surface because I could experiment and move things around, something that is not as easily done with an open layout with tracks on risers.Two Inch thick foam is an impediment to using Tortoise switch machines, but it is not impossible.

The occasion of the second layout was the end of the “lease” on that basement room which was to be rebuilt into a nice conference room. I took the two ping pong tables up to an old classroom on the top floor of the library building, and using these as two separate “blobs” connected them via a 36" wide L-shaped open frame table. These tables proved to be too wide to access all of the layout, especially since I placed staging yards under the scenery at the rear of the table. I needed 30 people to lift up the layout as a unit and to move it north and west by about 18" so that I could get in behind it.

When this layout proved to be to difficult to keep running, I took it apart. The two ping pong tables are now again end-to-end as the “East Blob”, and the other two tables are set next to each other side-by-side, making a table (the west-blob) that is six feet wide and about 16 feet long. No I cannot reach the middle, and I do not have to as there is nothing there. The layout wraps around this table like a donut (up to five levels along the west side facing the windows.) The layout is so tall that nobody can see that there is a void in the middle of it. Around the room connecting these two tables is a wall mounted unit on three levels. The lower two levels are 16" deep with space behind them for the “bents” that hold the table to the wall, The upper level is only 12" deep but set

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You just gotta love it!

P.S.: Good wiring thoughts. Wiring is the last thing you think of for layout planning.

Box grid, including modules, would be effective on this flatter layout, and; cookie-cutter on a plywood base could also be useful for mild elevation changes. A bit of L-girder can still be interspersed in the box grid supporting that L-girder for a longer run.

“What if” question…

What type of connectors would be best to connect wiring between the modules?

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Thanks much to all for the replies so far - most useful!

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Help me understand. I don’t see why this should be a problem, other than maybe having to use a longer than normal drill bit.

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Pretty much whatever is needed. Table saw, circular saw, jig saw, etc.

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My own layout comprises four modules arranged in an open square…open in the middle, that is, so that I can be surrounded by the terrain and the railroad.

Each of the four modules comprises two parallel L-girders forming the long sides, and they are held apart by perpendicular, sometimes angled, bracing between them of 1X4 clear spruce. The L-Girders comprise, in turn, one 1X$ on edge, or thin side downward, and a ripped half of one of them across the top to form the L. The L is both glued and screwed 'cuz I don’t take no chances…not with my skills and experience, and not with my expensive rolling stock.

Each of the modules is bolted to the one it faces using carriage bolts, two bolts per face.

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More info: the layout will be fully accessible from all 4 sides. I did a “mock up” by placing a sheet of the blue foam on top of 4 stacks of boxes so I could check height and reach-in (I even ran a train). 30" to the middle is a bit of a stretch, but acceptable. No track will be in that area, and I’ll use a small step for doing the scenery, etc. 28" would be better but I need the width for the curves at the ends.

I’'l be using Digitrax DCC.

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I’ll cast my vote for open grid. I know some people like more exotic things and I can’t fault them if thats what they like. But to me, open grid follows the KIS principle, keep it simple. Yes, open grid in my mind makes it easier to move modules and its just plain easier to build. Make a rectangular frame, design/build some cross members and then add legs and stabilizers to the legs. You can add risers where you need for wood subbase and go with plywood or whatever subbase you like for larger flat surfaces like yards etc.

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The open grid would fit your needs much better than other methods. One thing, are you really set on using the Kato Unitrack? It is one of the better sectional tracks, however, you are still limited on the trackwork ( radiuses, turnouts ect) Decent flextrack on a roadbed of choice along w/ Shinahara, ME, Peco or good Atlas turnouts will allow endless arrangement of the layout track plan.