Lack of steam products from producers

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I’ve been back in this hobby for just about a year now. Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time.

Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance. I’ve noticed that just about every major manufacturer has produced either an F3 or F7 in the last year. There are also quite a few representations on SW 7s, Geeps, and FAs being marketed simultaneously. Any reasons behind this?

2

I’m a leading-edge Baby Boomer. I turn 75 next week. My generation has some personal memories of steam, but not much. Mostly, I remember those old F-units and Geeps. As my brethren head for that Big Roundhouse in the Sky, or maybe that hot and smelly basement, steam will become a niche market.

I still lke the Transition Era, but more and more, we’ll see layouts set newer than that.

I am just glad that I can still buy a caboose.

3

I see mucch steam advertised in MR, more of the good brands too, but the price is far out of reach for a LION.

I am done buying equipmenta as my railroad is as mature as it is going to get. I only hope that I can still get up there tto finish up the details, get the trains running as intended, and make some videos of it.

4

I think the biggest reason we don’t see a whole lot of steam is because its just more expensive and harder to run.

Pretty much every diesel model uses the same basic chassis and mechanical components, just swapping out details and lengthening/shortening the model, and putting a different body on top. A lot of companies are still using the same basic chassis, just with nicer electronics, that they developed in the 80s. Diesels run well on small radius track, are easy to make, and, as others have said, are getting to be the main type of locomotives remembered. Diesels also have the benefit that they were mass produced and pretty standardized. Its not like steam where there were 5-10 major manufacturers, and each railroad asked for major differences in their delivery: pretty much every GP7 is a GP7. There might be small differences between railroads: pennsy and southern ran them long hood forward, for instance, but that is just part of the paint job and installing the electronics. Most of the other modifications are either so minor that 99% of modellers won’t notice, or are easy enough to change.

Steam doesn’t have any of that. While the ability to run steam well has greatly increased in the past 20 years, particularly now with the introduction of keep alive capabilities, it still is harder to run, a layout using steam needs to have some way to turn locomotives around, and maintenance on them is a lot more fiddly.
That’s also, ultimately, why railroads dropped steam power. They had to run their own machine shops to make new parts instead of buying spares from the major producers, they needed a lot more space to service them, they needed a way to turn them around, and they took way more man hours to maintain.

5

Diesel was largely standardized with simpler mold lines.

Steam has complex working gears with a very large variety.

Sadly more profit is in diesel. Bachmann and BLI get my money, even for diesels. They go you can kiss the steam market bye bye. Walthers clearly gave up on steam. I miss the Proto USRA 2-8-8-2, N&W, Berks, and 0-8-0/0-6-0 yard goats.

6

If you think about it, steam has also hit a demise in the model arena for the afore stated reasons. Cal scale and Kemtron offered hundreds of lost wax brass cast steam locomotive parts that are now difficult to find or at least are not readily available. Back in the 50s and 60s, there were lots of freelanced steam layouts with modified locomotives, which reflected actual practice with steam locos on real railroads. Back then, you could get a (very popular) United Ma & Pa 2-8-0, which begged to be modified for under $35.

Well, times changed. Brass prices escalated. The demand for brass castings went down. Kemtron went away. Cal Scale got absorbed. But then, people started modifying BB diesels, which as stated before, are easier, just like the real thing.

At least I hope this helps.

7

In the short 16 years I have been in the hobby, the only direct competition apparent to me was between the now-gone MTH HO model offerings and BLI. The other producers of steam, the spotty Lionel HO offerings, the occasional Genesis Big Boy, Challenger, FEF, and Southern Mountain class with skyline casing (I think it is), whatever five or six BLI brought out yearly, Bachmann still dabbling in steam, Rivarossi, and now Rapido, we have done reasonably well if you like big steam and limited roads. Many of these also offer in N scale.

If there was any competition, it wasn’t overt. Instead, they each sampled their customer’s desires, often based on historical information and markets, and kept those coming. Proto 2000 have gone, and I don’t see Walthers being enthusiastic about steam any more; in that respect, they do have competition…too much of it.

8

The issue has to be lack of demand.

Steam locomotives apart from Thomas the Tank Engine and friends have no relevance to current railroading or even railroading for the last 60 years.

Most hobbyists with recollections of or even interest in steam have bought all they want.

That’s why I snap up any decent used steam locomotive that appears on my LHS shelves. What’s already out there is likely to be pretty much it fairly soon. New product is CAD$600 and up compared to diesel at CAD$150 and up.

9

Not perception in quantity, but in my opinion has gotten BETTER in recent years. BLI has been coming out with all sorts of things. Athearn Genesis has done some nice things. The problem with steam is they are so specialized. Only one railroad had a Big Boy. Only one had an Allegheny. Only a few had the UP type Challenger, and only three had the Northern Pacific Z-6 type challenger. Pennsy steam is pretty unique to that one road. So manufacturers lean toward the things many railroads had USRA type designs. OR worse the generic non-descript type Pacifics and Mikado’s that scale modelers don’t really like (think Mantua).

They all do their marketing research and try to determine what will be profitable. So if the trends in the model railroading comunity are used, then of course their marking research will come up with similar results. How they act on that research is anyone’s guess.

10

We’re all waiting up here for Rapido to do a Selkirk. So far only a Hudson and a 10 Wheeler.

Canada built their own designs so we dream of a Canadian Consolidation followed by a Mikado which CP themselves built by converting their Connies so Rapido could do likewise.

A Jubilee would be an Icon of Canadian Steam, speed record and all.

Then a 4-4-0 would be nice. Finally a couple of PacifI s though they were so common as not to be truly iconic of Canadian railroading.

But that’s a big ask and our market by itself would be pretty small.

I’d buy one of each but Rapido needs to sell hundreds to make it work for them.

11

On the OP’s original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can’t prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all “the same” so each manufacturer’s model has to be the same as the next guy’s

12

I agree completely, and BLI remains the front runner. As Santa Fe modeler and ignoring foobies, for the last 15 or so years the only non-brass steam locomotives you could buy were BLI’s 3751 class 4-8-4s and 3800 class 2-10-2s, plus P2K’s 1790 class 2-8-8-2s (a beautiful model; however, the Santa Fe used the prototype only for a few years in the mid-1940s as helpers), all pretty large engines. Then, about a year ago BLI came out with the 4000 class Mikados, which are much more useful for smaller layouts. Furthermore, later this year BLI will offer the only streamlined steam locomotive the Santa Fe ever owned, the “Blue Goose” 3460 4-6-4.

As a side note, to me BLI’s decision to produce the Blue Goose came as a bit of a surprise, considering that there was only a single prototype locomotive, and that models had been produced previously. The old plastic Rivarossi model might not be much of a competition, but there are three different brass versions available (PFM, Tenshodo, Hallmark). Considering that the new BLI Blue Goose will be a brass hybrid, the older brass versions might become more affordable, especially as they pop up quite frequently on eBay.

13

Manufacturers first and foremost are going to produce what they believe will sell.

We have reached a point where other than Big Boys and Challengers and big UP Northerns, and excepting BLI’s steam line and certain fan trip steam engines, they don’t think steam can sell well enough to justify the cost expenditures. The next one up will be C&O 1309 in HO…because it lives again.

After many years of both kit and rtr steam locos, Bowser completely dropped their entire line of steam engines, many years back now. If Lee English actually thought there was any money to be made, they would make steam power. However, Canadian diesels are “in”, and sell extremely well for them, as the Canadian market was very under-served all these years. Generally speaking, they are making what they can sell the most units of. There was no Genesis-level Alco RS-3 available, so they made it.

Steam engines are the most expensive models, always require special care and feeding, and the generation that had any memory of them at all is rapidly leaving the scene.

Surveys have shown that most people want to “model” or “collect” the trains they saw during the most impressionable time of their life, typically childhood or college. That means the 1960’s to today’s rolling stock is hot, and prior rolling stock is fading in its sales appeal.

Respectfully submitted–

John

14

Good steam, modeling wise, is enduring and worth repairing, many times when a diesel is kaput, you just replace its mechanisum.

15

I was totally surprised. Also of the variations of it. Took me a while to figure out which one I wanted. I like the as delivered paint, but went with the 1950s paint because that will fit better with the bulk of my equipment. I mean I have E1s and E6s but most of my car fleet is from the 1950-1956 time period.

16

I feel a large part of the problem is, very few modelers have seen an actual non-fantrip steam locomotive at work. At 74 years on this planet, my memories of steam are only featureless, dark masses. Oh sure there’s fantrip steam. They too are part of the problem, as I see it. Want a shocker? Ask the younger crowd, "How many of you have ever seen a diesel without ditch lights? A Baldwin or, Lima-Hamilton diesel? If they look at you as if you just sprouted a third eye, don’t be shocked!

People have trouble developing in interest in something they have never seen. For instance, my daughter is a knowledgable railfan. She is a middle-aged wife, and mother of two 20 somethings, so she’s not a kid. We were talking railroading one day and I asked her about her major interests in railroading. Her answer was the Southern Pacific, before Golden West Services came about, before the Gyralights were removed and before the diesels were “lobotomized”, before speed lettering, and there was a caboose on every train. No conspicuity stripes, no wide noses and no d----- ditch lights! I then asked her about steam. “Oh ,its nice but I never saw it in real life, I prefer diesels.” SP , 1981, in common English.

It is not about the complexity of the model, variety of wheel arrangements, price, or any of those things. The main problem is, most people born after 1950, have never experienced, nor do they vivdly remember an honest, work-a-day, steam locomotive in revenue service. Notice I didn’t include the fan-trip queens, tourist haulers, or even the stuffed and mounted guardians of so many municipal parks.

Just like you don’t see horse drawn stagecoaches, or open cockpit bi-planes every day, steam has become an “event”, somewhat similar to the circus coming to town. People go, ga

17

No Shortage of Steam Parts!

18

At our local club, only 4 members out of 20 have steamers, and only 2 of us run steam on a regular basis. However, ALL members enjoy seeing steam engines, but prefer diesels because they are easier to run and are less fussy. Steam engines are always a hit among visitors as well. Old and young.

So, if manufacturers can continue producing reliable and easy to fix steam, I think they will maintain that market. Everybody loves seeing those little moving parts… Bachmann has been a blessing for those modeling on a budget, like me. The only beef I have about their recent offerings is the molded details. They used to have more detailled engines in a very recent past. A step backwards. I have no clue how that affected their costs, but I just can convince myself paying many hundreds of dollars for a steamer with molded on details.

Another beef of mine is the poor pulling abilities of the smaller Bachmann steamers. They really should consider adding traction tires. Or consider using a different metal - with more traction - for their drivers. All-wheel pickup on their tenders would allow them to use another alloy for the drivers, with more traction.

Don’t get me wrong, I am very grateful that Bachmann has maintained their line of steamers at affordable prices. Good buys, and a good aftermarket service (and parts!). But improvements are always possible.

Simon

19

An interesting thread throughout.

As someone from the U.K. may I join in and say what the situation here is?

First on a personal view.

When my grandchildren first became interested in my layout they could not handle the large carriages and diesel locomotives in my collection. Therefore I purchased some Thomas the Tank items. Apart from ‘Thomas, Annie & Clarabel’ it was an expensive mistake.

I should have listened to them as to what they wanted.

Anyway, it has come to be that they want to see the diesels running. The faster the better according to my second grandson. My other four grandchildren prefer to run trains a little slower. [:)]

My younger granddaughter is ‘the train nut’. She will go anywhere where there are trains. She loves the 1-1 stuff be it steam, diesel or rolling stock.

Secondly - the view here in the U.K.

Older modellers tended to model a time they remember. That was usually steam era.

The younger modellers modelling the diesel era with models of Flying Scotsman or Tornado alongside.

Recently there has been a (big) shift to modelling pre 1923 era by young and old. Rolling stock of this timeframe are ‘flying off the shelves’. I am one of them when I run my steam engines

Model Railway Manufacturers are producing steam locomotives in pre1923 liveries at a fast rate.

Now we have the pre1923 group, the I remember my youth group and the diesels group.

David

20

John,

I guess Accurail didn’t get that memo prior to releasing their ca. 1900-1940 36’ Fowler and wood-sheath boxcar kits, which apparently have been selling well, as evidenced by the “Out of Stock” status on numerous previously released cars in those series.

Steam had pretty much evaporated by the time I came along. Yet, I am drawn to it and model it - along with early diesel - because I find it much more interesting visually than model deisels, which all pretty much looks the same to me. But, I guess one can argue that 40’ & 50’ rolling stock in various shades of boxcar red suffers the same blight. [swg]

I didn’t realize that Bowser made RTR steam locomotives. I was aware of and have seen the steam kits but never their RTR steam. Maybe they are in a locked vault next to the RTR Accurail cars? I think that Accurail experiment lasted maybe a year or two before they punted and went back to their bread & butter kits. Over 45% of my current rolling stock is made up of Accurail kits.

Tom