I am now in the process of building my first “serious” layout and I have a question that’s been tickling me for a while.I plan on covering my entire bench with two inch foam to start with and I’m wondering if I may simply glue the trackwork directly to it.I’ve always used weights and glue to hold my tracks down directly to the wood for my few test layouts and it worked well but the noise wasn’t an issue then.Now that I’m investing time and $$$ in a more serious project,I’d like to do it right.Will the foam reduce the noise significantly by itself or if I risk to have regrets that I didn’t use cork.I don’t spike my tracks down anyway (and don’t glue turnouts either) and even if I did,cork isn’t that great at holding spikes either.It would be both cheaper and simpler not to use it but I will if it is a recommended practice.Thanks for any advice.
If you want to groom ballast realistically, you will need something, whether homabed, topper tape for campers, foam roadbed, or cork roadbed. The rails are elevated by a foot or two above the surrounding mean grade so that the ballast can drain water and meltwater away from the ties and rails. The ballast also keeps the ties put so the rails stay in gauge. So, for a main line or spur, you would want ballast.
Plastic roadbed of the EZ-Track type is noisy on extruded foam. In fact, the foam tends to be like a drumhead. It thunks when you tap it. So, you would want perhaps a thin layer of siliconized latex caulk that stays rubbery, but not attack the foam. Dap makes some.
If you do place the track elements directly in contact with your extruded foam surface, use track nails in every hole to keep it oriented properly. Drill a few more with a fine bit and add more nails…you can always pull them up later. Or, do what I did…tap the foam surface between several ties with a small drywall screw…easy in, easy out, leaving no substantial damage. But the inverted conical head will snug to the the rail foot and keep them in one place, oriented as you like.
-Crandell
Go with the cork, you need the profile and if you do any inclines it is much easier.
If you follow the advice in Building Reliable Track from MR, cork on topper tape would further reduce the noise.
I’m old fashioned, but My Santa Fe is laid with Homasote for yards and homabed for the mainlines. Have been using it for 25 years or more, started when Homabed was made Herkimer NY (I think) and is now CalRoadbed. A lot of my track is handlaid on ties, the rest is flex. Quiet, and smoooth running. It is flexible and has two different tapers to the roadbed.
But whether you use homabed, cork or some other medium, it is needed for stability and for appearance.
Bob
Simple answer - YES
When I started building my layout I did tests with flex track laid on bare plywood, bare 2" pink foam, 1/2" homasote on 1/2" plywood and finally, cork roadbed on 1/2" homa and 1/2" ply. It was a really easy decision, the cork-homa-ply combo won hands down for noise reduction.
The point of cork roadbed (or any other) has nothing to do with noise; it is about elevating the track for a prototypical ballast profile. If you’re “serious,” then, yes, roadbed is a must. Cork roadbed costs next to nothing, compared to most model railroad products, so spend the money and do it right.
BTW, you can fasten the cork to the foam with latex caulk, and the track to the cork the same way. Works well and has the benefit of making the track reuseable if you make changes later.
For you, perhaps. I don’t think there are any deserts in time zone -6.
Unfortunately, here in my part of time zone -8, there IS a Dessicated Desert - and I live in the middle of it. As a result, cork is a non-starter - it dries out and starts to crumble altogether too quickly.
My choice for a suitable substitute is fan-fold underlayment - extruded pink (in my case) foam usually used under vinyl and metal siding. Like all other foam, it cuts easily to shape, so there’s no fancy jointing and patching under even the most complex puzzle palace of custom-designed specialwork. Odd pieces and leftover scraps join the thicker foam used for scenery construction.
Sound deadening seems to depend more on using a sandwich of different materials rather than the characteristics of any one material. I strongly suspect that the three layers of latex caulk in my sandwich may be the critical link in giving my can-motored locos stealth characteristics. My older open frame motors are intrinsically noisy, but all of their noise is airborne, not roadbed rumble.
All of which proves that there are no absolutes in model railroading. One size does NOT fit all.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
As has been said roadbed is a must to get realistic looking track.
There is another alternative to cork and that is WS foam roadbed. I have used it on top of my foam board and it has worked very well. It is easy to use as it curves easily, it’s easy to cut, comes in many lengths up to a 25’ roll. Latex caulk works well gluing the track and the roadbed to the foam top.
Another benefit is that track nails go through the foam road bed and into the foam board easily. In fact you can cut hair pins or paper clips and push them over a tie on the outside of the rail to hold the track in place either temporarily or permanently. If you leave them in the ballast will cover them.
If I have a noise problem I don’t know about it.
Bob
As mentioned the short answer is yes you do need roadbed. Extruded foam of any kind be it pink or blue actually resonates sound like a drum head and it is louder then if you nailed your directly right to plywood.
If you pick up Realistic Reliable Track from the company store section of the site you’ll see in Tony Koester’s article how Ted Pamperin cuts ballast shoulders into extruded foam and if not mistaken puts a think layer of cork between the foam and the track, so thats not the only reason for using it but also for sound absorption purposes as well.
However many feel and I am in agreement that cork drys out over time and crumbles, I concur and apply the same as Pastor Bob in using Homasote for sub roadbed and in yards and Homabed for main and branch lines. A far superior product to cork in every respect in that it holds nails track spikes much better,it doesn’t dry out like cork does just to name a few reasons and even though it may appear to be more costly it will actually be cheaper in the long run and worth every penny in my O/P The few draw backs of homasote is A: it’s messy as all heck to cut so it must be done outside, B: it will kill your table saw blade, C: It’s not easy to find, in my part of the country it can only be found at Home Depot and the funny thing is they make it about 25 or 30 miles from me and no one else has it.
You can avoid a lot of the pitfalls of using Homasote buy using Homabed manufactured and sold by California Roadbed company. In your case I feel a much more cost effective way to go as you already have your extruded foam base.
My foam board is layed on top of 1/8" plywood.
Maybe that accounts for mine not being noisy.
Bob
Thank you all for your replies.Well,I haven’t said what exactly I’m after.Hearing my trains roll isn’t really bothering me personally as for one I’m not a heavy roller to start with,and I even like the click-clack sound of the wheels when they meet rail joints so some sound (noise) of the bearable type is even enjoyable to me.However,I live in an appartment where neighbours are close by and may have to move some day into some similar conditions and want to be absolutely sure that my hobby isn’t bothering them in any way.Vibrations of whatever type have sometimes many ways to transfer from solid structures to other structures so that some that don’t disturb you may disturb others.I want to be hobbying whenever I feel like it and not have to worry about this possible problem.
I’ve read that in term of noise reduction,foam can be favoring sound even more than dissipating it.I admit that did surprise me somewhat as I’ve always seen foam as an insulator.But then,can someone suggest a better way to cover my layout.I’m actually building a plywood benchwork but haven’t purchased any foam yet so any change of mind is still on order.
I also read the words Homasote and Homabed.Are these the same products named differently or are they quite different with comparably different features?I don’t know if these are available around Quebec city but if of any technical value,I can probably order some.I’m not too much towards cork,they use it at the club and I don’t find it such a good idea but still,it may be what’s best available.
And as far as neighbour’s peace is concerned,I will have carpet patches under the layout’s legs but…will it be enough?Thanks again for your infos,Jacques.
Cork? Not necessarily, but have something you must. Personally, I’m a foam roadbed and silicone caulk guy, but your mileage may differ.
I’ve never had a noise issue, no matter what I’ve used.
Hi Jack,
There has been a lot written about cork vs other roadbeds, much of it contradictory.
I used the search window on the right and this was one of many threads I thought you might find interesting.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/thread/1277727.aspx
Bob
“I’ve read that in term of noise reduction,foam can be favoring sound even more than dissipating it.I admit that did surprise me somewhat as I’ve always seen foam as an insulator.But then,can someone suggest a better way to cover my layout.I’m actually building a plywood benchwork but haven’t purchased any foam yet so any change of mind is still on order.”
One of our club member is a retired chemical engineer who used to work for DOW, he explained why extruded foam transmits noise. Now I am paraphrasing but he said something about being as it has no air space in between and is basically a solid mass the sound resonates through the foam and is actually amplified by it. I don’t know enough to say weather or not it;s true as he;s the guy with the PHD not me. I just know that if you put track directly on foam as opposed to putting down roadbed on the foam and then putting the track on the roadbed there is a night and day difference. I am not a big fan of extruded foam but a lot of guys use it with great success and many prefer it to other methods so I would say if you like the idea of using extruded foam go for it.
“I also read the words Homasote and Homabed.Are these the same products named differently or are they quite different with comparably different features?”
They are and they aren’t, Homabed which is a trade name coined by The California Roadbed Company is made from Homasote. could ramble on about the differences and how it’s made but you would be better judging for yourself. Check out both links Richard Jayne thoroughly explains the hows and whys of his product and I can honestly say yes there a bit of salesmanship there but the guys right on the money and produces a quality product.
I know more about Homasote then I should as I am the only person I know who has had a guided tour of their facility. It’s not very far from where I live and just happened up on it by accident one day. I pulled in their park
Actually, extruded foam does contain air in the minute bubbles or more accurately, cells, formed in the product. Perhaps he was referring to the absence of voids between the cells which is why extruded foam is a good vapor barrier. The walls of the cells are very rigid, which characteristic also probably contributes to the sound transmission. In contrast, foam bead board does have minute passages between its beads and is a softer, weaker material, probably more sound absorbent (but messier with which to work).
Dante
I used foamboard ( 2 inch thick) on a bed slat type frame
After I wired everything underneath, I loosely stapled fiberglass rolls of insulation in between the slats.
I can still easily get to any wiring and simply retack the insulation back in place.
This method totally silences any drumboard effect.
The idea behind using foamboard on mine was to make my three tables which are bolted end to end to form a 6 foot wide by 24 foot long layout ,lightweight, easily moved if necessary.
The legs all bolt on, and the whole layout can be easily taken apart and moved in a few hours.
Doing this same thing in 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch plywood would have been quite heavy to easily move.
TheK4Kid
California Roadbed Company [link] is currently running a sale on a number of their Homabed products.
Alan
PS The product should be sealed with latex paint to protect it from humidity changes (just like cork should be I believe).
Alan,
Exactly what I thought but found out from Richard that it’s not necessarily the right thing to do. I laid down several hundred feet of it when doing my double track main. So I figured ok lets paint it to A: help seal out the moisture and B: use the gray color so in case any ballast finds it’s way loose you won’t notice it as much. WRONG! Thankfully I only painted a small section before I had to leave to do something else. When I can back to it the next day I noticed it was hard as a brick and it was more difficult to push a track spike into it. So I emailed Richard and and he told em unless your putting down the Homabed and are planning on leaving it down for a long time before you add track and ballast don’t paint it. Besides the stuff comes gray to start with. Duh? The paint or not to paint Homabed/Homasote debate come up here every so often. I have used it in the past and have it on the new layout now for about 2 years and have no issues with moisture what so ever. If it absorbs water like a sponge like so many people claim then why doesn’t it fall apart when you use wet water and 50/50 white glue?
I am using the same system as Bob, the only difference is that I am using 5/8" and 3/4" plywood for the table tops, then 2" of foam glued on top of the plywood. I use both cork and Woodland Scenic (WS) rubber road bed. Both are excellent and noise is definitely NOT a problem. As others have stated, if you want to do it right, use a road bed.