I’ve got a 12X22 room for my new layout. The layout I’ve designed was designed to have as much usable surface area as possible, while still providing enough aisle clearances… (seen below) (the black line in the layout was a 2 sided view block I was thinking of) Now for what’s keeping me up at night. I’m trying to replicate as close as possible the attched system map (also seen below) of the Mass Coastal Railroad. I’d like to model from Middleboro or Rochester right down to Hyannis. The Hyannis section of my layout will feature a large waterfront section with fishing piers, and ferry terminal. (unlike the prototype). However with the design I have, I can’t seem to make the system map make sense on it. Some of the key problems being a small yard on both ends Middleboro and Hyannis, and the North Falmouth branch, and the run along the canal. I do plan on having a scaled down version of the Cape Cod Railroad bridge on the layout as well. If my room was shaped like the actual map I’d be ok, but it’s rectangle! Any opinons on what I should do? As far as location placement, redesign of the layout etc…
Any input is much appreciated! Thanks, -Pat
*Note that John Pryke’s layout runs from Boston to Provincetown, twice as far as the section I plan on modeling. Being smaller hopefully I will be able to encompass a more acurate Cape layout and more landmark features such as a larger section of the canal. That layout can be seen in the database section here:http://www.trains.com/mrr/objects/pdf/mrr-f1006_new-haven(1).pdf
I have a similarly shaped space, but with different access. Am contimplating several footprint possibilities including two short or one long penninsula. In your case I might go for one long, narrow (to keep asiles reasonable) penninsula from the right hand side. You could start your mainland end at the left side, then divide where the penninlula goes off, outer cape on one way, Falmouth branch on the other, It does mean that to follow the train going to the front wall you operators would have to runaround the penninlula, but if you had a siding for sorting cars, the train could hold there while waiting for the operator.
I don’t know what era you are planning, my wife remembers the last summer of regular passenger service down that way. The last time I visited the area the trash train made it regular trecks, not sure if there was much other traffic or not. Always went by late at night, so didn’t get a good look, though it was only across the street.
Will be looking forward to seeing your bridge. Never saw the real thing down, always in the up position, as there were more boats than trains.
Thanks for the quick response! I’m not sure I follow though… The layout drawn above is in a larger room, however there is a bar, a small dispatchers center which is all computer control, and a crew bathroom. I’ve spent most of the winter making it a living room quality space. So I can build it any which way I want, in that 12X22 space. The accsess point drawn was justa preliminary sketch, I can have it virtually anywhere. Also, I’m modeling present day. Mostly trash trains running, but some other “fictious” places also, lumber/freight to the ferry terminal/aggregate and bulk material to a barge terminal for service to the islands etc. I also plan on running the Cape Cod Dinner Train also, so there wil be some passenger traffic. I look forward to seeing my bridge too!
I think the deal with the two short “vertical” peninsulas is that when you figure in the curves & easements, you’re not left with a whole lot of straight track before needing to start another curve. This will limit space for straight turnouts - though using curved turnouts will help.
With one long “horizontal” peninsula coming off the right-hand side, you’ll have more room to stretch out.
Neat area you’ve chosen, IMHO. I have an aunt in New Bedford and remember several pleasant summers on the Cape.
What you could is making drawings of all the scenes you want in. Easily said, but not so easily done. A lot of selective compression has to be applied. The idea is to find out how far you can go with compression scene for scene.
When I did it for my own layout, I found out I had chosen too big scenes and too many. The search went on to find smaller “landmark” scenes. I found close to the main classification yard, a relief yard for LTC-operation. Just big enough for classification jobs on my layout. In stead of building the 1 mile long pier in Amsterdam I incorporated, only a part of the way smaller pier 20 miles down the road, into my plan.
This is the phase that takes time and some friends. Steinjr kept me on the right track during that period. Merely by just asking: is this really essential?
On of the basic questions. Do you want less, but more spacious or stretched out, scenes or more smaller scenes?
When you have an idea about the size and the number of potential scenes you will have to establish the pick-order. Which scene must come in and which scene might come in.
Have fun with the design; I am looking forward to see some of your drawings.
Well I know selective compression was a no brainer and has already been factored in to many spots of my ideas. As for the drawings, I have already done this “story board” set up with actualy photos, and satellite images. The problem is how to make my layout follow the actual system map so operators and visitors can walk the layout in real life order… The trick is just how do I do it! lol… Really the only one think I’m asking, how can I shape my layout to follow the system map, in 12X22. The million dollar question lol!
Veery difficult to follow your trains on a T or Y shape as the map shows, unless the operators step over or duck under the track. The one idea I had would be to put Wareham and Buzzards Bay on the center penninsula. When you get to the righthand end (in your original diagram), have your bridge lead to the around the room shelf. Turn left and follow the trains to Hyannis (the longer run and it could come all the way back to your door as shown). Raise the bridge and duck under to go right to Falmouth. Since the bridge is up most of the time, operators could have to wait for it to come down, whichever way they were going. Falmouth operators duck under before lowering and moving their train across the bridge. Trains could be sorted at Buzzards Bay, before crossing or after returning from the Cape.
HO? N? Single/double deck? You’ve got a lot of ground to cover, and I get the feeling things may get a little too compressed, maybe even too cramped. IMHO, I would go with N if you want to attempt the whole system.
Here are a couple of off-the-cuff shape sketches for a single deck, point-to-point, as idea starters only. No thought has been given to curve radii, so these two might not even work. Black line is a functional representation of the main track.
This one is something like what I think cowman was referring to [edit: in his initial post. did not see the followup later]:
The big flaw here, as cowman pointed out, is that the main cuts across the base of the peninsula. If a train does not need to go up the North Falmouth branch, the operator needs to make a mad dash from one side of the peninsula to another, weaving around any other operators who may be in the way. I was a newbie operator on a layout like this and I found it nerve-wracking. Old heads may be more comfortable with this kind of situation. Or, as cowman suggested, make the through train stop at a signal so the operator can get to the other side safely.
This shape is an attempt at eliminating the peninsula cutoff.
In this case, an operator running a train that goes up the North Falmouth branch always walks along the outside of the layout. Through trains to Hyannis walk on the inside. Tradeoff is narrower benchtops to
Alright! Now were getting somewhere… Very good and interesting ideas guys… I’m sorry I forgot to mention it’s HO scale, I know I could cram alot more in with N, but no offense to anyone, N scale just doesnt work for me… I know it seem a little ambisious to try to fit almost the whole run in, but seeing John Pryke’s layout run from Boston to Provincetown, I have to try for it! I do plan on a lower staging level, in which the trains will actually run down though the table down and up appropriet grades. One side I planned on losing the line through a crowded tree lines and under the table, and the other end possible through an enclosed building. (rough idea at this point)
Cowman: I like the idea of the duck-under through the bridge, the bridge is always up untill train passage.
Odave: Some excellent ideas and points you bring up… I’m partial to the signal after the bridge, and if I’m not mistaken there is one there on the prototype. However, once a thru train approches the bridge from Middleboro, the trains would stop allowing the bridge to be lowered, thus giving the operator pletny of time to change postion to the Hyannis branch section.
The second drawing would mean make it soe the layout is at least 24"-36" smaller to allow some aisle space to run get over to the North Falmouth line. The catch to this whole thing is I want to much! lol… 90+% of the Mass Coastal system is hauling trash off the cape, there are two transfer stations where it’s origniated. North Falmouth, and of course South Yarmouth, the two places that cause the headaches!
Well thanks again guys, you’ve given me plenty to keep my mind running! -Pat
John Pryke’s layout does not “run from Boston to Provincetown”.
John has done the sensible thing, and picked a handful of scenes from that area to model, stringing them together in a sensible way, rather than trying to replicate the entire system map with all stations.
If you assume you will be running trains that are - hmm - let’s for argument’s sake say one engine and ten 60-foot cars, then each car take about 60 ft x 12 inches/foot / 87.1 = about 8.2". So ten cars and an engine takes about 90 inches - call it 7 1/2 feet.
If you want two scenes that each are long enough to hold an entire train, and one train length between each scene - then two scenes and the running space between them takes about 22 feet - one long wall can hold two scenes.
Looking at what John has done with his 12 x 20 foot room (which is comparable in size to your 12 x 22 foot room), we find that he has selected 7 scenes to model (yard and street running in Boston, Buzzard’s bay with the bridge, Hyannis, Orleans and Provincetown - with the Yarmouth Wye modeled as a transition scene).
I would recommend that you do the same. Instead of trying to “fit in the entire run” (plus some extras like a ferry terminal in Hyannis). What people will recognize is scenes - not system maps.
Here we have an issue, before even trying to make a string, I would want to see those storyboard pics; not the satellite or photo pics, but the selective compressed pics.
Depending on the length of the trains you will want to run you can include between 5 and 10 scenes. The following question of course is, which scenes are really essential for the operational pattern of your future empire; not only scenes, also staging area’s (if needed or wanted) will be essential.
And you will have to deal with your druthers: like radii, visible staging or not, may the entrance be closed by a drop-in?, etc.
I think my plans are fairly “sensible” I thinki a 10 car string is a bit much also to be honest… Maybe our largest train on occasion may be that big, but I’m planning mostly 5-7 cars per run… Not a high volume road by any means.
My SEVEN scenes are Rochester (SEMASS and sorting tracks),Buzzards Bay (bridge and canal), Sagamore (Canal & Sagamore Truck and Rail), North Falmouth (OTIS Transfer Station), Yarmouth (bog scenery), Hyannis (Engine Shed,Waterfront), South Yarmouth (#2 Trash Transfer).
So there’s my SEVEN points and industies, just like John’s layout…
Since I only have 12’.6" X 22’ I figured I would have good shot at making it work… Maybe I incorperate a second deck right from go??? Always somthing going on in my head! where to put a helix in this mess now! lol
I have no idea if your plan is sensible or not, since you haven’t shown us your plan.
But you know your train lengths, and they seem sensible. You know what scenes you want to include. Good.
So what is the specific problem or problems you are having with your design?
You talk about the system map and the orientation of your room. Is your problem about scene orientation or scene order ? That you want the scenes to come in the same order as on the map, with the operator always being to the south or east side of the railroad tracks or something along those lines?
Attempting to get maximum run length between some specific pairs or scenes - if so - which ones ?
I think my problem is what you said, that I want the layout scenes to follow the map. And I can’t make sense how how to build the benchwork in order to do just that. I know I could just drop stuff however I want it, but I would like to stay as close to the prototype as possible, just my personality I guess. I know in this hobby there are restrictions and compramises, I’m just trying to get some other eyes on my project for some constructive critism.
Everyone who’s replied to this post has been a great help, thank to all of you…
So what would it take for you to feel that a layout is “following the map”?
Is it e.g. necessary that something that is to the NE of another place on the map also is to the right and above of the first location on your layout?
Is it necessary that east is rightwards and west is leftwards when looking into a scene (ie that your vantage point is to the south of the tracks)? Or would it work just as well if you say that that right is west and left is east?
Is it enough that the scenes follow each other in the same order as on the map when you run from place to place?
Do all scenes need to follow each other in prototype order, or are there some scenes that are more important to you to have in some specific order?
Could you mirror a scene or some tracks - so a track that goes off to the left on the map goes off to the right on your layout, making it possible to have a peninsula go into the aisle, rather than away from the aisle?
How about drawing up some track schematic diagrams (stick figures) of each of your scenes, so we can get an impression of how big your various scenes will be ?
Where will staging be in your track schematic ?
How about describing how your trains will run - where they will start, where they will run to, what they will do on the way?
Could very well be that some of the readers have suggestions for you once they understand what you are trying to fit into the room.
Smile,
Stein (e before i, btw - stien is a totally different word
To give an example; the schematic of my home town. A very condensed version; between the depot and the freight yard is a double-track mainline with a 35 feet wide platform with a beautiful canopy. The whole plan between the curve and the overpass is in reality about a mile long.
The upper-side is against a backdrop. I would like to find a nice way to add the branch with hidden staging. The branch is not essential; the depot, team tracks, the chocolate factory and the big curve to the west are essentials.
If you can draw your scenes like the one above you would have a start. It would be great if you could post them as well.
Paul, I like the idea of doing the scense like you did in your attached picture, maybe I’ll work on some up close pictures like the one you have and post for some for feedback. What program are you using for that? I have AnyRail, and I’m not too crazy about it… Thanks, Pat
To get started, a schematic need not be as detailed as Paul’s, so even the humble pencil and paper (and eraser) will suffice. Here’s an example I did in Paintshop Pro for Hansel some time back.
Remember, these are just functional diagrams of what tracks are present and how they connect with each other. They are not necessarily drawn to any scale. This will help you figure out station order, and when you start twisting it around to fit your space, the benchwork shape.
Think of this as an intermediate step between the prototype system map and a scale-drawn track plan.
Once you’ve done that, you can move on to adding more detail like Paul’s.
