Layout help and design tips

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Hello to everyone!

I know I’m not the only one who asked for help here regarding his layout design, but since this is my first layout, I’m all about learning and getting tips and suggestions from you guys.

My layout won’t be big by any mean, and is unfortunately against 2 walls. I’ve already built the benchwork, but that’s about it. As you can see on the plan, the base benchwork measure 9’x4’, with a 4’x1’ L-shaped extention at one end. The walls are at the top and to the left. It’s deeper than what most people recommend for easy access, but I wanna have a run-around layout, and this was the best way I could find to utilise as much space available as I could.

I’m gonna build everything in HO, as I already have some rolling stock and structures, but I would like to use flex track (Atlas Code 83 or something similar). Right now I have a bunch of Bachmann steel EZ-Track, but it’s only temporary. I’ll go the DCC way, as it seems to be the most practical and future-proof way.

I’ve been looking at a couple track plans that gave me some ideas. A couple of them had 8-figure mains, and without having something that looks toyish, I tried to integrate an overpass in my design. that way, it gives me a longer run. On the other way, I’m looking for a minimum 2.5% incline with this setup, and it adds to the complexity of the plan. I don’t wanna go under 18" radius curves, and I tried to integrate as many 22" turns on the main as possible. Since I wanna go flex track, I’ll try my luck with progressive (spiral?) curves.

I’m not looking to run very long trains, something like 1-2 GPs and 10-12 cars maximum. I’m setting the timeframe around 1970-1975, so maximum car lenght should be around 60 scale feet (hoppers, box cars, gondolas, tank cars, centerbeams). If possible, I’d like to run a 3-cars Pullmans but I realize curves may be too tight.

I’ll add some industries along the main: a grain elevator, a freight house, maybe a scrap yard, lumber or some sort of gravel pit/min

2

Hi and welcome,

You came to the right place.

The biggest problem you have is that more than half your track is out of your reach. What do you do if you get a derailment, or you need to repair your track work? A large person has a maximum reach of about 30" without damaging scenery.

There are a couple assumptions you are making and they seem to be based upon ideas of layout design that are several decades old. Unfortunately, you have already built your benchwork. Fortunately, this is easy to rectify without wasting a lot of your work and materials. Yes, I’m suggesting you might want to take a step backwards, or at least examine a few options before you get any further along.

One of these assumptions is that you have the best design for the most layout for the space. Grated you have only showed me two walls, but if you assume that you need at least 30" of space to comfortably walk around your layout, you could build a U or a donut shaped layout and have a lot more layout for the footprint.

One thing you might do is take a look at my Beginner’s Guide to Layout Design clickable from my signature. It will take you about 5 minutes or so to read.

3

Check out this sheet of plywood design contest. Each contestant got a sheet of plywood to act as the base for their layout. They could cut the plywood anyway they wanted.

Pay as much attention to the use of space as how the plywood is cut–even in scales you don’t use.

Sheet of Plywood Layout Design Contest

4

Thank you for your reply Chip. this is exactly the kind of tips I was looking forward to get.

Your website is great, I’m looking at it right now. You’re right when you say that you need to have a vision before you start cutting and buying. Obviously, having a 40’x50’ layout would be wonderful, but the more I read article and posts here, the more I realize you can have a lot of fun if not more with a smaller one.

About the benchwork, I must say I got all that wood for free, it was a former Lionel layout that someone had to get rid of. So it’s basically a couple 3x4 plywood with 1x2 beams. I’ve been thinking of a way to fit it in a U-shaped layout (since that’s how it was installed originally) but my main constraint is a column to the left of the plan. I updated my plan to reflect that.

I’ll try to take a photo of it tonight and post it, that will give you a better idea of the space available. I realized (and even more after I put the bench together) that 48" is very deep, and while I can always use a stepladder to reach the end, it’s not an ideal situation. I can (and will) modify the benchwork before laying down anything serious tho.

One thing I could always try to do is to extend the leg of my extention to the right another foot toward the bottom of the plan, and cut inside the middle part about a foot. How would that be?

5

Draw your entire room, showing all walls, columns, doors, windows, other uses of the room etc. Then it might be possible to offer some more or less sensible advice on space use for a layout.

Some examples from another thread:

Original plan - 4 feet wide island:

One possible alternative use of the same space:

Another possible alternative use of the space:

I have a layout that looks like this in a 6.5 x 11.5 foot room:

Here is a small 2 x 8 foot shelf switching layout:

There are several options to a oval or a the figure 8 on 4-5 foot deep benchwork.

But first rule : start with a drawing showing the whole room, with distances marked off clearly.

Then start formulating why you want a layout, and what you want to model.

Some suggestions another poster got:

6

First of all, as Chip stated, there are other benchwork configurations that may work better for you.

One is the “cockpit” configuration Iain Rice used for a 4x8 in his Kalmbach book on small layouts, now out of print. Basically, this creates an open area in the middle of the rectangle that puts all areas withing a 30" reach. A single “cassette” is used to span the opening to the cockpit when continuous operations are needed.

Another is the center pit type, which fits in much the same overall space. A good example of this type is the HOG RR (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HOGRR/).

But going back to your track plan, I’ve built a number of 4x6, 4x8, and similar layouts. Here are my comments on your proposal:

  • as Chip said, access isn’t good enough. My dad and I built a 5x13 expanded version of a 4x8, with one long side and one short side against walls. Even with 2 pop up access hatches, the track in the back died a slow, painful death from lack of access. Even sitting on the layout installing the track in the 1st place was no fun. A 4-5ft wide rectangular layout needs to have access to the 2 long sides and one short side to be practical.

  • why worry about 22" radius curves if even one of the significant (30 degrees or more) main line curves is 18" radius. I’m not saying to use 18" radius curves everywhere. But 22" radius curves gain you very little except somewhat improved looks if your actual minimum radius is 18". And 22" curves on 4ft wide benchwork almost guarantees toy-like track strictly parallel to the sides and awkward, space-consuming turnout arrangements on the sides.

  • a twice-around (what you drew) has pluses in that you get a longer run and a scene where one track crosses over

7

Impressive responses to 'Ford’s post.

I think an upside down U with 18 inch radius curves is the way to go for a basic shape, provided you have no other means by which to expand the space. I think that smaller layouts lend themselves to an urban/industrial themed setting, like Stein’s plan, with an out and back (main industry to interchange point) or car distribution (switching) operating theme.

Consideration given to realistic placement of structures and the tracks that serve them will be important when you decide if you are pleased with your layout after its built. In addition to roads, trees (if any) etc. Using building flats against the walls would be a good way of maximizing operations and the overall look of your layout.

You mentioned the number industries you wanted, plus passenger operations. Not that what you described is too many, especially if you go with an urban setting, but keep in mind that railroads tend to survive on fewer but larger industries, rather than many smaller industries, which tend to get served by trucks. For example, packing a lot of small industries, with spur tracks pointing in every direction, into a rural themed setting would probably look unrealistic when the layout is finally completed.

8

Thank you all again for your help!

It’s all about ‘thinking outside the box’.

There, I’ve draw a quick sketchup of the room. It’s very crude, but it should give you an idea about available space.

As you can see, it’s pretty small, but considering it’s an appartment, it’ll be hard to find bigger space heh. Right now, the bench, as drawn, sits at the top of the plan, starting between the column and the top wall, stretching 9’, to clear the closet door. If it wasn’t for that door, I would have the perfect place for an L benchwork!

I need some space to get to my computer, so I can’t get the table too close. The limit is pretty much the bottom part of the column.

Now, regarding the layout and operations: I really like the U/cockpit, or the L setup, if there’s a way to integrate it in the available space, that would be great. About the curves, you’re right, I thought that the most visible curves should be 22" only for appearance, but it does take a lot of real estate. I read that progressive curves can make 18" radius looks a bit better, so I may try that, what do you think? I will concentrate on equipment that runs well on tighter curves (no Pullman/autorack/TOFC).

I’ve been thinking for a while what kind of operations and era I would like to model. Obviously, there’s nothing fixed yet, and I like the idea that I can add on later or modify it slightly if the need arise, but for this one, this is what I’m looking to do:

-Model/Era: I’m not looking at prototyping anything, mostly freelancing. Early-mid '70s, maybe stretch it to either late '60s or early '80s. The more layouts I see, the more interested I am with brach line operation, and it looks like it’s a more realistically approach for a small layout. I’m originally from Northern Quebec, in Canada, so something inspired by a mix or Canadien National, New England or G

9

Excellent summary of given and druthers!

A couple of quick clarifying question about limits on usage, referring to the room sketch and description:

  1. The cupboard in the upper right hand corner - does it need frequent and easy access? Or does it contain stuff that only needs very infrequent access, and could e.g. be covered by a lift-out section of some kind (like a bridge scene) ?

  2. Computer desk. Would it be possible to build the layout high enough that your computer desk (or a reconfigured computer desk in another shape) could fit under the layout (or partly under the layout) ?

Here are some picture from my layout room:

Removable section bridging gap

Lift-out bridge section in front of a door used when I want continuous running - doubles as a cassette for moving a train of one engine and five cars into or out of the layout. Obviously could have been made to look more like a real bridge, if I had wanted to have it removable instead of emplacable (ie have it in most of the time instead of having it in just sometimes).

Layout above work desk/shelves:

Work desk (which is extremely messy …) is about 50" long x 24" deep - not very big. Railroad tracks are at level 51" off the floor (20" below my height - ie at chest level). This allows about 14" between the my work table surface and the bottom of the layout fascia (which is about 5" high in this area).

Layout top could have been lifted to about 55-57" without getting too extremely high up relative to my height (I am about half an inch short of 6 feet tall). Layout thickness can be held made to go well below 4" by using e.g. metal L profiles as part of the benchwork in t

10

Nice pictures! It’s always inspiring to see how people dealt with their space constraints, and found a way to maximize the space utilisation. I realize that a longer, narrower layout may be more fun than a wider and less accessible one.

Regarding the height of the layout, my (now!) temporary benchwork is sitting at around 42" off the ground. There’s stuff you need to visually see and feel to be able to make a decision, and that was one of them. The main reason for that height was that first, it needs to clear my 40" access doors for my central AC unit, and second, it was the height of the longest 2x3 I used as legs, coming from the free lumber I got. Also, I imagined that it would be high enough. But once i got everything up, I could see that it is still too low to really appreciate the scenery, and I’m still looking down to the table (I’m 6’1"). Also, the space under the layout is used as storage and for my servers. So, the higher, the better. Not to the point where I’d have a very narrow shelf type layout, but around 50" sounds better than 40". I will measure my computer desk, but since it comes with a hutch, it sits pretty high. the good thing is that the hutch is basically a shelf, so it could be easily integrated. But my guesstimate is that it sits at least 55-60" off the ground. Unless I add an incline/ramp; probably a good 3.5-4% ramp, which may look steep but shouldn’t be a problem for my short trains.

About the closet: yes unfortunately, that’s my clothes closet, so I need very frequent access. I never thought about a removable bridge, it could be a very nice solution to use that part of the wall, and maybe add a looparound there. I don’t need to have the layout in a complete functionnal state all the time; I can link different parts whenever I wanna run a train on it.

I see that you used the blue styrofoam. It seems like the preferred choice to build on. I was planning to use that as well, would you still recommend it?

11

Oh man, too bad you couldn’t remove the hutch, place it on the floor on the north wall with the layout over it. Since a computer desk sits 30" high and on monitor on top of that is probably no more than 18", you could wrap a branch of the layout around the two walls occupied by the desk and build shelves for storing your hutch items in the 18 -20" that’s under the layout and on top of your desk.

Just sell your current computer desk and by a new one [;)]

12

Or just cut off the top and turn the top into shelves standing on the floor. I have a couple of shelves on the floor right next to my computer desk here that used to be on top of the computer desk.

Cut them off and put them on the floor to make the computer desk fit under a 2x7 foot layout I was working on in our living roombefore I decided to change to building the 6.5 x 11.5 foot layout downstairs - you can see the cut of computer desk shelves under this old picture of the first shelf layout I started on:

Makes sense.

Btw - I saw this German guy named Kurt use a very simple (and effective) way of mounting a lift-out in this thread on another forum: http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=163541&page=2.

[quote]

I see that you used the blue styrofo

13

Rabbit Trail! - So it would seem at first. But there is such a thing as being lost in space. I have been much more successful cramming essentials in an interesting way into a small space than I have been trying to design a 90’x60’ for my new layout space.

I mean, where does one even start with this space? I was thinking I wanted an observation balcony.

768×512 71 KB

14

In phases. I’d start with 20x20 in a corner and start looking for club members.

15

I like that picture of that shelf… nice size. I see you mounted it on the wall using those rails for 16" shelves?

There’s a couple pictures of the room; computer desk on the left, and the current table on the right. I measured the top shelf height of my hutch; it’s better than I expected at 53". As you can see, it would be difficult to come any lower anyway, and that’s only with my 22" LCD heh.



16

If it was me, I would devote the entire south wall to your main industry that you see the reason for your railroad to exist, your lumber mill, coal mine, or grain elevator. I would use an 18" deep shelf, since that credensa you have appears to be that deep, and a shelf of similar depth shouldn’t impede your mobility around that area. (btw, is that the life like feed mill with beverage of choice on the credensa?) You could incorporate another industry (like the feed mill) to give that area more operational interest other than just the one industry.

The part that has your existing benchwork I would use for the destination point, whether it be a lumber yard, power plant, or even an interchange track for the product to go off-layout. One or two other industries could be located there as well, as well as your loop for continous running.

Getting from here to there is the challenge. I would not use the hutch as support for a shelf, in case you need to move it. And, the distance that must be spanned to go above it might need a verticle element, like a 1x4 set on edge along the span, to give it structural support. That will raise the height of the layout to about 57" or higher. That might be okay if you’re taller, but at that height, every inch you increase the height cuts down on the amount of layout you can see and reach more so than going from, say, 44 to 45 inches high. Another option:

It looks like you have some space to move the desk away from the window wall enough to properly support a 1x4 or 1x6 to use just as an unscenicked way of tieng both scenes together. You could lower the height to a more manageable 48" and even maybe put tunnel portals on either side of the desk to simulate the train leaving one town and entering another. You might have enough open space in the hutch to provide access to the trains behi

17

I have a few suggestions here that I have compiled over the years. I have it stored in my computer so I can just copy it.So here it is.

I will suggest using peco switches / turnouts. They are a little more $$$ than atlas but much better quality and well worth the extra money. Also start with a 4x8 plywood and sectional track. Build what you think you want not with a lot of detail and scenery. run it for a while (3-6 months) now take it apart start over with new layout. Make the changes you think you want do a little scenery. give it a little time and do it again from scratch. Remove scenery starting with bare plywood. You might note I have been saying “what you think you want” . That is because you probably don’t really know. Doing it this way you learn what not to do and what you want in a layout. To many people jump into it with both feet, end up with a huge layout spending a lot of money and are disappointed with result because they didn’t know what they actually want. When you figure out what you want in a layout throw away the sectional track and get flex track. Now that is another subject for later. Also find a local club and find other Model railroaders in your area. Most of us love to have our brains picked and show off our world. If you hang around a train shop for a while you will meet other modelers.

Now I will add to this something I recently learned. Make all of you isles as wide as possible. Avoid duckunders at all cost. The reason for this is all of us including you are getting older. Health becomes an issue. 2 years ago I had a stroke leaving me disabled. When this first happened I used a wheel chair for a while then a walker, on to crutches and now a cane. My Isles are 24 inch minimum. That is a little tight for me now. Thankfully I don’t have a duckunder or I would still be outside looking in. I do have a lift out section. It is made of steel which is good as I have tried unsuccessfully to distroyit in the last 2 years. Well that is my for what its worth

18

VERY good advice, Lester!

We “experts” tend to forget where we started from and that some of those experiences we made you need to make yourself to find your own way. So the idea of starting with a “simple” 4´ by 8´ sheet of plywood and to build a non-permanent starter layout to fiddle around with instead of jumping into the attempt to build that wonderful dream layout (that you won´t be able to build unless you have 25 years of mrr experience) is the way to go!

19

MrFord:

I think Lester and Ulrich’s advice is better than mine.

We can get carried away with designing something on paper, after all it is fun, but seeing the trackwork and models run for real is when YOU really decide what you like. I’m sure you read other threads in this forum and can tell that even experienced modelers need to actually lay the track, and adjust it, because their best effort plans don’t work exactly as they thought when actual track laying starts.

20

You bought a school? That is way cool!