Lehigh Valley Service To NY/NJ

Classic Trains General Discussion
1

Hi Everyone! I have some questions about Lehigh Valley Passenger Service to NY/NJ. I know that some Lehigh Valley trains terminated at the CNJ Terminal in Jersey City, NJ. I also know that at least some LV trains went into Penn Station, NY. Did LV service go to both places at the same period of time? Was service to Jersey City replaced with service to Penn Station, NY?

I believe that LV trains going to Penn Station picked up PRR electric locomotives at NK tower in Newark, NJ? In serving Jersey City where did LV connect with CNJ? Was that at Bound Brook, NJ? Thank you in advance to all who may be able to answer some of my questions.

2

Additional complication: there’s a pic of the westward Asa Packer (?) in Newark Penn Station with the LV 4-6-2 already on it (circa 1939?). One wonders: did it originate there? If so, how did the equipment get there?

It seems LV did have its own passenger station in Jersey City, immediately north of the CNJ terminal. I’ll see what the book says about when they used it; that motor from South Plainfield (?) always? went there.

3

You remember the LV originally ran to Perth Amboy, so their passenger trains originally got on the PRR at Metuchen and ran to PRR Jersey City. Around 1888 LV extended its main line toward Jersey City and shifted its passenger trains to CNJ Jersey City, initially (at least) via a connection at Roselle. Then in 1918 USRA shifted LV trains to NY Penn.

But that local continued to run all-LV to Jersey City until 1948 or whenever it was discontinued, and when the Asa Packer started in 1939 it ran PRR to Newark Penn and onward thru Journal Sq to the connection with the National Docks and worked its way over to LV Jersey City. That’s what the book says (it also says the Asa Packer moved to NY Penn in 9/40) but far as we can tell from the 9/39 PRR employee timetable the Asa Packer then terminated at Newark Penn.

4

At some point LV moved from the CRNJ Jersey City terminal to the PRR Exchange Place terminal for their local trains that did not go to Penn Station. The power was then serviced by the PRR and not the CRNJ. And they operated from Newark to Exchange Place as extras, not as scheduled trains, but did carry passengers. (Where would the Asa Paker’s locomotive be serviced in Newark, anyway?) Westbound, they were scheduled in the PRR emplyees timetables. And having ridden the LV several times, I remember the engine change point as being at the tower and track where NJT trains to Raritan currently leave the main line corridor and where the RDC Crusader and Wall Street remenant schedules to and from Reading Terminal via Bound Brook and West Trenton and Jenkintown left the main line. In addition to GG-1’s in used on LV trains to and from Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard, the single R-1 4-8-4 was often used in this service. In fact, the Aldein Plan specifically used a stretch of LV main and one suburban passenger station to connect the CRNJ to the PRR.

When the Wall Street and the Crusader RDC’s left Newark, the PRR public address train announcer did not announce the last stop as “Philadelphia”, but “Reading Temrinal.”

5

I misread the book-- that Roselle connection was temporary, and apparently freight only. The Howell-North book explains that in 1891 LV passenger trains quit getting on the PRR at Metuchen-- but they still ran to PRR Jersey City (Exchange Place) via the Hunter (Newark) connection, until 1913 when PRR kicked them out and they moved to CNJ Jersey City. It seems their route to CNJ’s terminal was via Oak Island Jct. So, did any LV trains run to the LV’s own terminal at that time? Dunno.

Then in 1918 LV started running to NY Penn, except for the trains I mentioned above. No evidence that LV ever ran to Exchange Place after 1913.

Edit: I was wrong about that-- far as we can tell from the Guides LV locals to Flemington/Easton ran out of PRR Exchange Place until 1938. Incidentally, they’re not shown stpping at PRR Newark-- just LV’s own Newark station.

Further edit. it seems LV moved from PRR Jersey City to CNJ Jersey City in 1892, then back again in 1893.

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SEND LEHIGH TRAINS TO NEW STATIONS

Passenger Traffic to Reach New York by Pennsylvania’s Gateways

McAdoo Orders Changes

Through Western Trains Will Use Pennsylvania’s Tunnels and Locals Will Enter Jersey City Station

Special to The New York Times

WASHINGTON, Sept. 9. - The announcement was made by the Director General of Railways tonight that the New York City and Jersey City stations of the Pennsylvania Railroad would be used by the Lehigh Valley Railroad Company, beginning on Sept. 15. On the same date the present use of the Communipaw terminal of the Central Railway of New Jersey by Lehigh Valley passenger trains will be discontinued.

It is proposed to send Lehigh Valley trains Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 20, 30, 11and 28 into the Pennsylvania Station in New York City, while the other Lehigh Valley passenger trains, Nos. 1, 27, 33, 40, 22 and 34 will use the Jersey City station of the Pennsylvania.

Passengers from downtown New York for trains leaving the Pennsylvania uptown station will use the Hudson & Manhattan trains connecting at Manhattan Transfer.

Hudson & Manhattan trains and the Pennsylvania ferry service also will be used by passengers for the Lehigh Valley trains leaving from the Jersey City station of the Pennsylvania.

Discussing Director General McAdoo’s order, railroad officials last night said it was another step in his program to co-ordinate and centralize railroad traffic. Under the new routing, they said, Lehigh Valley pas

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Hunter Tower

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/nj/nj0900/nj0939/photos/112354pv.jpg

NK Tower

http://books.google.com/books?id=BfbYjCQvLvcC&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=&f=true

8

Again, before and during WWII, any and all LV passenger trains showing Newark, Penn Sta., as their terminal, actually did continue to and from PRR Exchange Place.

9

Looks like you haven’t seen that book with the red dustjacket-- LV East of Mauch Chunk, or something like that. As it points out, the Asa Packer was scheduled to leave Newark Penn 50 minutes after it left Jersey City (Exchange Place to Newark is 7.6 miles). The book explains there was a backup move to get out of LV’s terminal.

Offhand I’m guessing the only timetables that showed any LV trains terminating at Newark were the PRR employee timetables. The Guide showed the Asa Packer running out of “Communipaw”, which apparently means LV’s Jersey City terminal.

10

There’s a neat old map of Jersey City that shows a Communipaw Station on Communipaw Ave., inland near a Lehigh Valley coach yard. Zoom in on the top right corner of Plate 47, which the link is set to. The map index page shows the entire city. Plate 48 shows the CNJ station. Plate 10 shows the PRR station. Plate 11 shows Erie and DL&W.

http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/JCplat_book/Plate47/index.htm

11

That’s a CNJ station. It seems the LV Communipaw station was out near the river (tho it’s not labelled on Plate 48) so passengers could walk over to the CNJ ferry.

One puzzle: in 1939 the Asa Packer made two round trips a day Jersey City to Mauch Chunk; the two westward trips were scheduled to leave Newark Penn 50 minutes after leaving Jersey City, but the eastward trains arrived JC 27 or 30 minutes after leaving Newark. Maybe the westward train ran via National Jct, requiring a second backup move, unlike the eastward train?

12

The Asa Packer probably was timed to leave Jersey City soon after the CNJ ferry arrived, and to be early at Newark so as to display their streamlined train while waiting for the Hudson & Manhattan.

Items of PRR Chronology,

July 30, 1938 - LV local makes last run between PRR’s Exchange Place Station and Flemington; last LV train to use Exchange Place.

Aug. 1, 1938 - PRR cancels LVRR trackage rights into Exchange Place Station and use of Waldo Yard. LV’s Flemington commuter train begins operating to LV’s Johnston Ave. Yard in Jersey City adjoining CNJ ferry.

Feb. 20, 1939 - LV inaugurates Asa Packer, a “streamstyled” heavyweight train between Johnston Ave., Jersey City and Mauch Chunk; train operates via Journal Square and National Docks branch with a backup move on ramp to Johnston Ave. line; is serviced at PRR Waldo Yard.

Timetable says Jersey City is a mile from New York. Second link is 1927 photo of Johnston Ave.

http://www.lvrr.com/index.php?album=%2FM-LVRR%201947%20Time%20Table%2F&image=page01-02.jpg

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1630054&t=w

13

I stand corrected on Exchange Place, but I know perfectly well that the PRR would not allow the LV to ocuppy track space at Newark any more than normal for a train to load passengers, so there must be another explanaition than “display.”

Incidentally, I have been asked a question about the NS article on Penn Station: “But sure ly there must have been much more traffic at Penn Station (NY) during WWII than during 1967? How did they handle it?” The answer is not really. During WWII MOST corrirdor and Perth Amboy mu computer trains and most Long Branch steam-hauled trains ran right through to Excchange Place during rush hours and not to Penn Station, which handled mostly long distance PRR trains during rush hours. Today, everything goes to Penn except for a few trains Long Branch trains to Hoboken.

I had always assumed that the LV trains going on the PRR tracks from Harrison to Journal Square ended up at Exchange Place, and I was wrong. Now these tracks are bereft of overhead catenary and are only used by PATH.

14

Hi guys, new here and I know I am late to the party, but I was told about this thread and that I might provide some assistance. I am the author of the book “The Lehigh Valley RR Across NJ” referenced above in the link to Google Books about NK tower. Since I am modeling the Jersey City Terminal, I have done a lot of research on the area and the operations. I don’t know everything, but please feel free to ask a question if you haven’t already found the answer, I love to talk about the LV whenever I get the chance to!

Thanks,

Ralph Heiss

S. Plainfield, NJ

15

i’ll just stick my 2 cents worth in here. once in in 1955 or 56 i was boarding a pennsy train at penn sta to go to south amboy (to photograph K-4’s) when what should slide in on the other side of the platform but an LV train - powered by an O1a 4-4-4 boxcab! i thought they’d all been scrapped by then. no photo but vivid memories. -big duke

16

Are you absolutely sure in was not P-5 boxcab? The O-1’s were 2-B-2, s (4-4-4’s) and the P-5’s were 2-C-2’s (4-6-4’s).

17

Bigduke is right, the O-1’s spent almost their entire service lives handling LV trains between Penn Station and Newark. They were too light for almost anything else and usually worked in pairs.

18

While under the U.S. Railroad Administration, in 1918, the Lehigh Valley was ordered by General McAdoo to start running passenger trains into Penn Station.

19

B&O was ordered to run into Penn Station at the same time with 4 trains a day each way. I believe the B&O operation was terminated in 1926.

20

I just came across this thread, and may be able to offer some observations. During 1959, I had an office in the 1st National Bank Building across from the PRR Exchange Place Terminal (Plat #11 of the Rutgers plat). I do not recall any LV trains coming into Exchange Place. All but one were PRR MUs, and the other was a train from the shore pulled by a Baldwin Shark. One of the the cars was the “Jersey Shore Commuter Club.” The tracks running through the streets were served by steeple-cab rubber-tired locomotives, that could drive on the streets around box cars serving the Colgate plant… The curves in the streets were extremely sharp, with occasional derailments.

I was with a law firm whose predecessor had been counsel for the Hudson & Manhattan RR Co., which built what is now the PATH. If memory serves me correctly, one could buy tickets which covered an H&M trip to Newark and the trip on the regular train.