Let's get this straight!!!

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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This thread is once again about Amtrak. I’ve been reading some of your threads in others’ forums and also the responses to my comments. Even for some of you who are against funding Amtrak, I can agree with you on parts of your opinions, but, I strongly disagree with some of you on others. Keep in mind however, some of these other countries that are ardent capitalistic societies also support their all, if not most of their countries’ rail network. That’s passenger, commuter and freight operations. Some of these same countries view the need for a strong rail network as we view the need for a police force and a fire department in some of our major cities. Other city sevices in some cities, counties and towns are optional, but not police and fire. We pay alot of taxes to have these services and now in this era of fiscal restraining and cut backs, some of our locales are in danger of loosing even the basics of services.

I worked with a man when I worked in DC, who was from England and he worked for British Rail before the break up into private entities. He said it is the biggest mistake the British government could ever have made. Unlike our rail system here in North America(US, Canada & Mexico), where most of our rail companies own their right of ways, are responsible for maintaining their own right of ways, equipment and structures, plus are responsible for dispatching their own trains or the trains of other companies(under agreements). Well, he explained to me that the entire British rail network was privatized. There were separate companies for track & signal maintenance, equipment maintenance, building maintenance and dispatching services. He said, none of these companies coordinated with each other, is why there were an increase incidences of derailments, collisions and equipment failures up until recently. There was even talk about going back to government control of the railroad.

Here however, we continually believe in this free-market society where you either make it o

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The way I look at is,Amtrak doesn’t stand a chance in hell because of America’s love for the Automoble,Sorry.

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No, I agree with what you are saying. Why do we continue to support everyone else in other parts of the world, but do not think about the things in our own country that continue to fall apart or break down. Maybe we should try to start a petition for this issue and start to submit it to Congress to see what they come up with!
Another thing about it all, is the continuing costs. These might not be where they are if some of the so called big shots, would stop lining their pockets with huge pay raises, and put some of the money they are paying themselves, back into the system to try to improve it. Come back to the real world with the rest of us.

4

Sure, maybe today Amtrak isn’t a vital part of American transportation. However the cheap gas that the American car culture revolves around isn’t going to last much longer. In China and India, people are just starting to “discover” the car and be able to pay for it. Just think, 2 billion more people with cars. What’s that going to do to gas prices?

Brennan

5

Amtrak will be dismantled as a waste of taxpayer money by politicians eager to show how they value the taxpayers dollar and want to provide the best possible value for it.

As soon as the American public forgets about the whole affair (about 2 nanoseconds), the need for a national system of passenger rail will be discovered and will be fully funded by politicians eager to show how they value the taxpayers dollar and want to provide the best possible value for it.

6

Spending money collected from highway users on highways does not justify subsidizing Amtrak. Even if the Federal government were subsidizing highways, that would not justify subsidizing Amtrak. Subsidizing air travel doesn’t justify subsidizing Amtrak. (I am not addressing whether or not any mode of transportation should be subsiddized)

Spending money to defend this country does not justify subsidizing Amtrak. (Unless Amtrak can be shown to be useful for defence)

Amtrak may be worth funding. If so, find legitimate reasons to subsidize Amtrak.
If money isn’t being taken from a lot of people just to let a few (1%) play with trains, prove it.

The proposed funding was not determined by whim. People who studied the issues much more thoroughly than any of us had input on the decision. The buget the President sends to Congress is never the budget adopted. Good solid arguments are needed if you want Amtrak funding increased.

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There are several arguments for subsidizing Amtrak and even increasing the subsidy to insure more comprehensive and better service:

  1. Competitive transportation that supposidly pays its own way doesn’t. Airlines have been bailed out many times. Both airlines and highways use lots more real estate than passenger and frieght railroading put together, even with all this big yards and terminals, and this is real estate removed from the tax roles. Highway user fees don’t being to cover the added police force personel needed for trafic control and law enforcement. Both highway and air transportation do more environmental damage than railroad transportation, freight and passenger.

  2. Amtrak and before that the private railroads have always come through in emergencies . America would truly have “shut down” when airlines were grounded after 11 September '01, and buses and the highways could not have begun to do the whole job . I am old enough to remember the “A-cars” gas rationing (and tire rationing)during WWII. Shutting down Amtrak is one more nail in the coffin for a realistic middle-east policy and a way of making the USA more dependent on middle-east oil. America’s railroads are indeed an important part of national defense and passenger railroading must be available on a standby basis. It is a lot cheaper to have something up in running than to try to pull stuff out of mothballs and set up an operating plan and open stations and figure schedules overnight.

  3. Tourism and impression foreign visitors have of the USA.

  4. Essential transportation in the Northwest where towns are otherwise snowed in.

  5. Elderly and infirm and people who cannot fly.

  6. The Northeast where passenger railroad is now an essential part of daily life and essential to the economy.

Now, I don’t recommend curtailing any other form of transportation to save Amtrak. I think they are all needed.

Possibly we should take a c

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From the Lionel Board (of all places) on AOL

"On February 7, the Amtrak Reform Council, established by Congress to determine if Amtrak could support itself, presented to Congress and the White House, its proposal to reorganized the system.

ARC recommended Amtrak be replaced with a series of independent corridor-based entities. The first of those, and one that is already well on the way to spinning off Amtrak is the Washington-Oregon Cascade system.

California has similar plans for its three routes - Pacific Surfliner, Capital and San Joaquin Daylight service. California already funds 30% of all Amtrak operations nationwide, with revenue earned from state sponsored routes. California purchased new locomotives and Alstom built bi-level cars and continues to upgrade the system within its borders, purchasing right of way from BNSF and UP and leasing back trackage rights to the freight carriers. If money from Amtrak California were only vouchered to California trains, the Golden State rail system would enjoy an operating ratio below 1.0.

The hard cold fact of the matter - Only twelve states currently support Amtrak with state subsidies for trains operated within their region: Alabama, California, Georgia, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oregon, Washington and Wisconsin. Those twelve states stand to gain from the ARC’s breakup plan. The other 38 states will be sucking eggs unless their citizens demand that their state government climb aboard the passenger railroad train. Won’t do any good to write to the White House or Congress. Writing to your governor and state assembly is a more effective plan.

Its all over for the Northeast Corridor except for the crying. Nobody wants the NEC, because it is a mess. The boondoggle of Acela drained all the money that should have been used to upgrade the infrastructure and purchase conventional rail equipment. The states of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylv

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And then if there is a national emergency?

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What service will Amtrak provide that any other RR could not provide?

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How about convenience? I can get in my car, go 10 blocks to I-10 and go anywhere I want to go in North America. I can’t do that with Amtrak, even though their trains go through here twice a day. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to take the train, but it doesn’t go where I want to go. I’d like to take the train to see my brother in Wichita this summer, but it would be a major pain to pull it off. I’d just as soon drive.

m

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A better Amtrak is the best way to conserve fuel for war. If everybody is using gas then the military can’t use it for their equipment.

As far as 2 wars go, try 3 now. It would appear that in addition to troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, there maybe a war with Iran and Syria is allied with them. Having said that, conservation of fuel is the best way to prepare for such an unfortunate turn of events. U.S may have money for the gas but if they can’t get the supplies, then what. Answer is fuel rations. Now to avoid totally screwing up the way the country does business is to start having better funded and serviced mass transit systems including Amtrak. Let’s face it, the U.S government can obtain concrete for ties, steel for rails etc far easier then oil from other countries. Acela units come from Montreal and so does most of the stuff that Bombardier sells. Other locomotives come from GE in Erie PA so really, it is alot easier for the “War on Terrorism” to have better mass transit systems and conserve/reduce on hard-to-obtain fuel from those same countries you are essentially trying to stop. Militarily speaking, it is hard to achieve victory if you are continuing to give funds to the enemy to build up on troops and buy black market arms.

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gfjwilmde:

If passenger rail is such a desireable mode of travel, why is it then that it cannot sustain itself??

Why should I, living over 100 miles from the nearest staffed Amtrak station where I one can even hope to buy an over the counter ticket, be forced to subsidize (through taxes) a passenger system that doesn’t serve my needs?

Why should the policy of a foreign nation who’s physical size is suffuciently small that any rail journey can be completed within one day, have any bearing on what this country “should” do?

I’d “like” to keep passenger rail afloat,…but not if it’s gonna mean an increase in taxes, my plate is already full, in that regard…

Admittedly, I am somewhat jaundiced, because when Amtrak dropped the Broadway limited, they stopped serving my community. You can call me selfish, but from that point in time on, the concept of Amtrak funding became one of “my having to pay, so that someone else may ride”,…and that doesn’t make me very happy.

A common argument to my posture seems to be that since I’m subsidizing the Air travel industry, and the highway system, why should I care if I support rail as well?

Well, the answer to that one is really quite simple,…the town where I live has Highways, and has an airport…so I might actually use those services, and derive some benefit… not so with Amtrak…

Next question?

14

Glenn -

Let me start by saying that the cuts come for Amtrak’s operating expenses, not for things such as right of way maintenance, etc. and this is NOT about how much funding goes to the war on terror. Please don’t confuse the issue.

No matter how you look at it, Amtrak needs to become more efficient. If cuts in funding are what it takes, then so be it. Like I mentioned in another post, if you don’t take the training wheels off the bike, the kid will never learn to ride on their own. Same can be said here.

Honestly, how long could you put money into something that’s not giving a suitable return on investment before saying enough is enough? Think of it this way, if you’re invested X amount into a company time and time again without a satisfactory return, would you still continue to invest money in that company?

It’s business and business isn’t always the way we would like it to be.

Brian

15

Glenn,

The British rail privatization has in time been shown to have been a smart move. The initial high rate of accidents immediately after privatization has been shown to have occurred due to the accelerated deteriorated state of the system prior to privatization. This infrastructure deterioration was underplayed by the British Rail officials, and it was only after some study recently that it was discovered how much worse shape the system was in under government ownership. Ostensibly, with this new discovery, the necessary changes will be made to make that system fluid.

Some have suggested that Amtrak officials who oversee the NEC are also underreporting the level of deterioration, should the NEC be either privatized or transfered to a regional authority. Either way, the NEC should be taken off the national tax payers list of responsibilities.

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This is addressed to those of you that consider Amtrak a failed business or a theft of the taxpayer’s money. The problem you face is that a majority of the voters in this country consider Amtrak to be a public service. They don’t care that Amtrak doesn’t cover its costs. They’ve had 34 years experience with that fact, and if it hasn’t fazed them yet, when, seriously, do you expect that it will?

I’m not seeing a plan from those of you who want to get rid of Amtrak. You’ve got to have a plan. Doubling and redoubling the vehemence of your arguments is not a plan.

OS

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H’mmmmmm,…And I guess that such a plan would have to be at least as honest as the plan orchestrated by the Govt in keeping passenger rail alive these past 30+ years?

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Wuuuuhhh? Orchestrated by who? This isn’t a dictatorship. The people voted for George Bush, AND they voted for a lot of congressmen and senators who consistently vote for Amtrak. They get all the government they vote for.

My advice? Quit worrying about their plan. Worry about selling your own plan.

OS

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The majority of the voters don’t know anything about Amtrak and don’t care. When planning a trip they don’t even consider the train. Although it does go to makor population centers, in most of the country there isn’t any Amtrak service within 100 miles.

Large areas of this country never have had passenger train service. It wasn’t economical to serve many areas by train even when the alternative mode was the stage coach.

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Much as I’m sure I’d like to,…this was not a step towards bashing Bush, at least on my part…

I’m talking about the ruse of the expectation of Amtrak ever being self sufficient in the firstplace.

After reading Don Phillips column in the mag these last few years, the conclusion I’ve drawn is that the initially proposed time line (for self sufficiency) was little more than a stall tactic, out of concern over the public outcry that would have resulted, had passenger rail been abruptly terminated back in the late 60’s. Evidently the thinking was that a couple decades worth of “stall” would deaden the sting to the passenger rail faithful and die hard nostalgists, like some carnival nut shell game where the last shell is held down long enough in hopes that everyone would just leave rather that wait for the outcome…

There never was a realistic hope for profitability, just as the crooked shell game artist has no pea under any of the shells.

So, if a plan of equivalent legitimacy is all that you ask, how about this one: raise each fare sufficient to cover the cost of each passenger trip, and let market influances determine Amtraks fate. Then auction off the rubble left over after one year.