LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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Oh for the love of Pete…can’t we keep politics out of trains. Or I’d have to remind you that the “Enron” scandle happened under the former president, and was caught under this one. Same with the Adelphia cable scandle, the California energy crisis scandle, the UN oil for food scandle, and a ton else. Let’s talk about trains and leave politics out of it! If not I’ll suggest that the toy business go “Democrat”…ie…take away half of my trains and give them to someone who never had a train before.[:)]

BTW… the jury verdict was larger than the actual damages. This is normal because it sends a message of being punitive. It may hurt Lionel in the short run, but someone will own it, at least the name. Remember that this is not the same Lionel of 100 years ago. The company hasn’t just changed owners, it’s changed in just about every aspect.

And don’t worry about the hobby or about it’s participants getting older. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. I’m only 33 and I’m using my dad’s 1947 Lionel 2025. I’ve got a layout now because I want to use it with my 11 month old in a couple years. I’m also using my dad’s original ZW transformer, on newer Gargraves track I bought on Ebay, with a MTH proto 1 diesel that I am converting to run with Lionel TMCC. So where there’s a will there is a way.

This hobby will continue to change and evolve. Technology will improve, some prices will go up, and some will come down. If people want a cheap starter set in Walmart, then some company will build one (although it will be made in China). The cool thing about this hobby is that we get to tinker and play. I can almost guarentee you that 50 years after it was “popular” no one will be talking about the playstation 2. There is no imagination there. The toys that become big boy t

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no flames coming from me on this one, you did a good enough job on your own!
Who knows, one day you might put them out and see the real picture there. Best of luck …

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All I can say about the matter of MTH/LIONEL is ,“What comes around,goes around”.MTH for years have reproduced mirror copies of Lionel products.Now if MTH had permission to do so,I don’t know.But for Lionel to do what they are accussed of doing is a bad thing.But don’t bite the hand that feed you.This will be a smear for MTH to have to deal with in the model train business for years to come.I for one wasn’t happy to see Lionel go over seas but I wouldn’t have thought MTH would have gone this far !

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I keep reading statements that Mike Wolf is a copycat. As pointed out in another thread, the Koreans stole the MTH blueprints for Lionel, who then produced locomotives with the stolen MTH blueprints. Who’s copying who? Lionel got caught and now they need to pay. Simple as that. I don’t want to see Lionel go out of business but justice needs to be served. If Mike ends up owning Lionel, I think it will be a plus for the hobby. I hardly think Wellspring and Jerry Calabrese are really “train guys”. They’ll license the Lionel name on everything they can. All they are interested in is milking every dollar out of the company.

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[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by plasticlizard

[

Oh for the love of Pete…can’t we keep politics out of trains. Or I’d have to remind you that the “Enron” scandle happened under the former president, and was caught under this one. Same with the Adelphia cable scandle, the California energy crisis scandle, the UN oil for food scandle, and a ton else. Let’s talk about trains and leave politics out of it! If not I’ll suggest that the toy business go “Democrat”…ie…take away half of my trains and give them to someone who never had a train before.[:)]

BTW… the jury verdict was larger than the actual damages. This is normal because it sends a message of being punitive. It may hurt Lionel in the short run, but someone will own it, at least the name. Remember that this is not the same Lionel of 100 years ago. The company hasn’t just changed owners, it’s changed in just about every aspect.

And don’t worry about the hobby or about it’s participants getting older. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. I’m only 33 and I’m using my dad’s 1947 Lionel 2025. I’ve got a layout now because I want to use it with my 11 month old in a couple years. I’m also using my dad’s original ZW transformer, on newer Gargraves track I bought on Ebay, with a MTH proto 1 diesel that I am converting to run with Lionel TMCC. So where there’s a will there is a way.

This hobby will continue to change and evolve. Technology will improve, some prices will go up, and some will come down. If people want a cheap starter set in Walmart, then some company will build one (although it will be made in China). The cool thing about this hobby is that we get to tinker and play. I can almost guarentee you that 50 years after it was “popular” no one will be talking about the playstatio

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I think MTH has some decent products, but could they PLEASE KEEP THEIR NOSE OUT OF LIONEL"S BUSINESS AND PRODUCE SOME ITEMS THAT LIONEL DOES NOT HAVE LIKE A 4–8-0, or more starter sets with semi-scale 2-8-0’s

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I’ve read in other posts that Lionel’s estimated revenue (not profit) per year is 60-100 million. The theft happened 5 years ago. IMHO, the verdict for $40 million doesn’t make sense. I think Lionel should be liable, but this verdict smells of another “lawsuit lottery” winner.

What has me steamed is how far MTH went–read the MTH press release at http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/518tpuns.asp
and ask yourself how many of those engines were not produced by Lionel first. And, how can you award damages for future lost profits when the competition can’t produce competing products?

We don’t seem to have a say in what happens in the courts, but do have a say in what happens in the stores. I think MTH will suffer a great deal of backlash and IMHO it is deserved.

Finally, while we may not have all the facts, I for one am doubtful that the jury had all the facts. Our legal system has long since forgone fact in favor of opinion. The winners in jury trials always rebut the critics with accusations of ignorance. MTH’s own press release reports that judge called the jury “especially sophisticated” because 5 of the 8 jurors had college degrees (implying the other 3 did not). Is that our definition of sophisticated? I wonder if any of the 8 jurors had a toy train?

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I also take exception to the idea that the jury was sophisticated. Define “Sophisticated.” There are many people without college degrees who are more “sophisticated” than many people who have them.

Tony

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plasticlizard: glad to hear you are in the hobby. Too many young guys aren’t and a lot of us older guys may have only 10 or 20 years left. When my grandsons come over, they play with, among others, a train that was first played with by me, then their mother and aunt for whom a few accessories were purchased and now, them.
This hobby allows kids to be much more creative than TV, video games,etc. do. Unfortunately the competition for their attention is extremely strong.
A few days ago on another thread I made a case for having accessories and operating cars on show layouts. Do this, let the kids pu***he buttons, see what these things do and then watch them nag their parents for a train.
I just saw this morning that KMart and Sears are merging. What a market for trains and all through one retailer! Getting train sets into those stores will dramatically increase visibility. But, not just one $250.00 set, but basic sets at blow-out price levels. And not just sets, but extra track, separate sale cars, FREE catalogs, etc. People who buy a basic set very soon, perhaps immediately want extra track and one or 2 more cars. And cut the prices to bring people in. I see no reason why a section of track should cost $2.00 or more, except that they can get that much for it.
One last thing: if a disaster like MTH’s PS 1 was built by the auto industry, the government would long ago have demanded a mandatory recall at no cost to the owners.

Jim

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MTH was founded on the principal of copying everything Lionel made. MTH didn’t care, they just blatantly stole every idea Lionel had. As a business man, this has always incensed me and as a result, I will NEVER buy a MTH product. The latest lawsuit is icing on the cake. Now I really hate MTH. I think they will suffer an incredible backlash from actions. Was Lionel wrong? Absolutely. But only after years and years of MTH stealing everything Lionel had at the expense ot the complete toy train industry. I will tell you right now that if Mike’s name is EVER associated with Lionel, I will leave the toy train collecting industry. BOYCOTT MTH NOW !!!

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“Boycott MTH now”?

You have got to be kidding (but I know that you are not).

  1. As long as MTH continues to manufacture the trains and control system that I want, I will continue to purchase from them. No one can or will tell me what I should or should not buy. (and yes, I am very biased toward MTH).

  2. Lionel is not the Lionel of our childhood, and has not been for years. Lionel has been owned by various individuals/companies since the end of the postwar era, each with its own ideas of what it should be. Whoever the current owner is, simply has the rights to the name, dies, logos, orange and blue boxes, etc. It absolutley matters not whether it is owned by Wellspring, General Mills, Richard Kughn, Mike Wolf, or someone else (other than the fact that if Mike Wolf owned it, there would be less competition in the market place) as long as they do a good job with the product and marketing.

  3. There are still some that look at Lionel as a villain from what happened to Ives in the late 1920’s and early 1930’s. That is ridiculous too.

We don’t even know what the outcome of all this will be yet.

We all need to just “get over it”…

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MTH was founded on the principle of copying everything Lionel made? Give me a break! Don’t you think that Lionel would have sued MTH long ago if the circumstances were even remotely similar?

As for jury selection, do most of you think that you should have been on the jury to straighten things out? With some of the leftist attitude posts on this thread and those previously, I don’t think that any of us could have done any better than the jury that was selected. Given that the points of the lawsuit were at times very technical, could it be be that some of those “sophisticated” jury members had a college degree that might be of some relevance to the case like mechanical engineering? Or would you ratther have a bunch of backwoods hillbillies with 5 teeth between them deciding the verdict?

If not buying MTH products helps some of you sleep better at night, then more power to you. Cutting your nose off despite your face isn’t going to change was has or in most cases what will happen to MTH/Lionel. I’m going to continue to buy product from who I want based on the product–not on what’s happened. I’m 28 years old and fairly new to toy trains, and I think it’s way to early(if at all) to get that frustrated over a hobby.

Robert

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Ogaugeoverlord,

With humble respect, as I’m just a short time visitor, if you don’t mind my pointing out: It seems that compared to the MR and TRAINS forum moderators, you seem to keep a rather tight and restrictive reign here. That is your right as you’re the boss.

Our moderator,Bergie, gives us quite a bit of “Leeway” on the other forums and allows us to police ourselves. Guys like BigBoy4005 and JoeFugate do an exceptional job of encouraging things to “keep flowing” when “flame ups” do occur. Bergie, only jumps in when things “get out of hand” or we e-mail a reasonable complaint.

You state: As few threads as possible. Why? If the hobbyists here wi***o talk, discuss, learn, exchange info, or even vent, then as long as they “keep it clean” what is the problem? Redundant topics show up on the other forums but what often happens is that “Newbies” see them for the first time and chime right on in so things stay interesting.

Well, I guess I’ve overstayed my welcome. Drop in on the MR forum sometime. Everyone’s welcome! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]

Peace out!

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Ogaugeoverlord is trying to keep the number of overlapping/duplicate threads down, not restricting content. I hate to see the same thing posted on umpteen different threads, pushing down threads that might actually be interesting to me.
And there’s always K-Line, Atlas and 3rd Rail, if you’re dissatisfied with your current importer.

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The purpose of the website is to attract newcomers to the hobby.

If someone comes to the website, sees 15 threads where people are attacking each other over topics that the newbie can’t comprehend, he or she will probably leave, never to return.

The exchange of ideas between hobbysts is great.

Fist fights over who is Team Orange and who is Team Purple are stupid. We’ve given forum members great leeway in their past discussions. All I want are some adult conversation without calling each other names. There is currently very little discussion here, just two sides yelling at each other and I’m a little fed up with it.

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Antonio, if you think this is bad, try the OGR forum. There is no freedom of speech there and this topic would never be allowed to be discussed. The threads get deleted or locked because the moderator is a control freak. I would give CTT credit for allowing us to discuss this issue.

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Hello MacDanny,

A good example on one of my points is Ogaugeoverlords post on the “tribute to Mike Wolf” thread. He suggested that the discussions referring to the QSI litigations that have impacted the HO & N market, be kept on the MR Forum. My question is still “WHY?”

Many of your fellow 3 rail and O gaugers participated and provided input on the MTH/QSI litigation topics on the MR Forum! It was GREAT to read input from the CTT guys! [:D][8D]

If a thread is repititious or boring, it’s so simple to just ignore it. [:p] The threads that are interesting to one can be quickly brought back to the front page.

But again, when posting on this forum, it seems (to me) that I had better tread more carefully then when on my usual TRAINS and MR. I find this a tad dissappointing as this entire collection of forums is about trains, the one subject that should somehow bind us together. [;)]

Peace and High Greens!

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I say, I pox on both your houses. For years, Lionel put out an inferior product, and charged higher and higher prices for the product, depending on shlubs like me who called themselves collector/operators to purchase their ever increasing product line. Then Mike Wolf imported three frieight locomotives, and Lionel pulled his retail dealership agreement.

Then Mike started producing quality detailed product at competitive prices in relatively small numbers, but equipped with a sound system that is now only obsolete, and nothing but an electronic headache.

Lionel then developed TMCC, which revolutionized train control, and brought the hobby into the 21st Century. At first, they would not allow any other manufacturers to use this control system, but eventually licenced its use.

MTH, still smarting from its original dispute with Lionel, developed another wireless control system, that in my opinion, has the potential to be superior, but is not from my experience, very reliable. How do you wire a big layout anyway, and avoid lost signals, runaway trains, trains that can’t be found,etc. I sure have tried.

But this latest lawsuit does involve an incidious problem in intellectual property rights that has arisen from knockoffs made in Asian lands. Lionel did steal MTH’s blueprints and copied their products. Look at them. Whether it is the diecast scale locomotives that are the subject of the suit, or the RailKing Streamlined Passenger Cars that Lionel copied, there is no question that MTH’s product was “ripped off” and sold for profit by Lionel. That is why MTH won the suit.

I have read above that the facts are in dispute. Let me explain something to you lay people. Lionel will appeal based on legal error, not on a dispute of the facts. The fact finder jury has already determined the facts, and no appellate court, certainly not the US CIrcuit Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit in Cincinnati, will overturn that finding of fact, unless there is a

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Miles,

If you want to discuss wiring for DCS, I will be very happy to do so. I too had difficulties when the size of a loop exceeded 60-70’. We have been operating a floor display layout with both DCS and TMCC for almost two years now. We have excellent signal strength and very solid control. I would be happy to assist via email if you desire:

rk1940@sbcglobal.net

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Well, I think Mike is going to find out that he can’t hit flies with the big guys. Kughn. Young and the Davis family could each buy and sell Mike. Now , the Lionel Countersuits are coming. QSI will get to pick the bones.