So I have a bunch of old tyco freight cars from when I was a kid (actually thats all I have as I’m getting back into the hobby :-). Anyway I notice the lighter ones (flatcars, tankers) derail alot compared to the heavier ones (box cars). And I’m not talking about wheels falling off poorly connected track. I mean more like they’re being pulled off going around turns (24" radius) and such.
It this is thing or just me?
Rolling stock - particular flat cars - need to be weighted to track properly. You can always add weight on the underside of the car. Here’s a few solutions:
Tom
Lighter cars don’t derail because they’re light.
They derail because they’re surrounded by heavy stuff.
I used to run a string of about 5 Superliners with absolutely no metal weights. Just the plastic body, floor, etc. Didn’t derail.
Put a bunch of heavy cars behind them, and go through a 24" curve = flop-bot.
An experiment for the OP: we know the light cars derail. Try putting them all at the back of the train and see if it’s still doing it.
All that said, your cars should all weigh approximately the same. Light. Heavy. In the middle. So, yeah, you should weight the light ones to match the heavier ones.
The National Model Railroad Association recommends, for HO, a weight of 1 ounce plus a half ounce for each inch of length. Not an unreasonable weight.
Ed
The big fellows have the same problem sometimes.
I recall a Trains Magazine photo spread where a photographer caught a sequence of shots of Trailer-Train flats (empty) derailing at Horseshoe Curve. It was back in the Penn-Central days.
I think the term is “string-lining”. Liken it to pulling (or pushing?) a length of string.
Regards, Ed
And the real railroads have rules about placing light cars at the head of the train to prevent the above.
Ed (other)
I agree with you there — Just think of the dynamics of the degree of curvature, super-elevation, the grade and two or more “Snappers” (helpers) shoving hard on the rear end and — wow!
As I recall, there was a “misstep” in placing at least a dozen, maybe more, 86 foot Trailer Train empties all in a group within that train. I’d sure like to read the investigation into that derailment. Maybe someone remembers which issue of Trains that was?
Cheers! Ed
Awesome! being a newbie I wasn’t sure what to expect on - ie “youre crazy or doing something wrong” types. LOL. Ok feel better. I’ll do a few things. To the earlier suggested I’ll try putting them last, see what happens. Will use various things to weigh them down, and will use the NMRA guide given to see how close I can get. PS - should’ve mentioned these are all horn-hook couplers if that makes a difference. from the sounds of it above it may not. thanks!
We are, too. It’s just that we’re more experienced.
So OUR crazy gets real specific and detailed.
And OUR something wrong is so specialized that most other people couldn’t tell.
Don’t worry. If you persevere, you’ll be right up there with the rest of us.
Ed
Absolutely, which is why consistent weighting is so important whether or not you follow NMRA weight standards, although some cars are SO light - I am thinking of the old 1950s Varney plastic flatcar and ore cars that were pure plastic without a bit of weight anywhere that would derail if you batted an eyelash when they went by.
Mixing body mounted with truck mounted couplers can result in sideways pressures that can lead to, or at least encourage, derailments, especially if the old hornhook couplers have springs that are so taut as to not let the coupler move in the draft gear box.
Cheap trainset cars sometimes have poorly formed wheels and axles that make derailments more likely. Couplers with very tight springs such as some trainset cars have can also make derailments more likely.
Dave Nelson
It does make some difference. Those couplers, because of their design, have a sideways force at each end of the car. “Regular” couplers (Kadees and all their clones) don’t.
Whether that sideways force is causing or contributing to the problem is a good question. But if/when you change to the good stuff, it surely won’t.
Ed
Ed,I see a lot of empties behind the engine(including bulkhead and well cars) on various live web cams so that may not be the real cause of stringlining and recall every manifest train is preblock.
A heavy hand on the throttle might be the cause.
Truck mounted X2F couplers was never a good idea from the get go.
When properly body mounted the X2F worked quite well—in fact they work better then some of the KD clones does today.
Body mounted X2f’s may well work better than some other couplers. In some ways.
But I was talking about the innate sideways force generated by their design. Which other couplers don’t have.
Ed
I almost never have derailments. “Brakie”, who I have not seen in a while, claims to never have derailments.
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It is a package deal, and weight is just one factor.
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You need good track, good wheels, good trucks, properly weighted cars, properly adjusted couplers, etc.
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Your old Tyco cars are going to fail on every item above. If you are determined to run them, they need weight, wheels, trucks, and couplers all serviced with replacements.
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-Kevin
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Kevin,You haven’t seen me because I was in hospital and then a nursing home for extended care.
A great embarrassment for me is derailments so,every car is inspected and KD couplers are checked for proper height and smooth operation. I also take care during track laying to ensure smooth track work.
I also add 3/4 of a ounce of stick on weight over the trucks.
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I am glad to see you back, and I truly hope that you are doing better.
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Take care of yourself.
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-Kevin.
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Welcome back, Brakie! Good to hear you’re back at home.
I agree with Dave, consistency is most important. The NMRA weighting requirements came from a different era, where cars were often either very light wood or cardstock or they were cast metal or brass. The standard was an attempt to come up with a viable means of getting fairly consistent weighting through the train.
In HOn3, many modelers adopt a lower weight, but still try to stay consistent. I wieghted my first 3000-series boxcar to the NMRA standard - and never did it again, even before I learned that my reaction was quite common among narrowgaugers {this was pre-internet and there’s no one else around here who was a NGer.) Otherwise our relatively puny locos would not be able to climb realistic grades with prototypical length trains. Most of the time, this is with a single steam loco. Standard gauge tends to use a lot more diesel and thus, MUing, so this really isn’t a problem for SG.
As for prototypical car placement requirements, the need was often limited to specific lines where the combination of grade and curvature made string-lining more of an issue. There’s always a cost to such operational restrictions, so they weren’t always applied throughout a RR’s track mileage.
The problem with horn hook couplers is not the coupler, it is the fact that it is mounted on the truck instead of the body. This means that the coupler controls the truck kind of like a rudder. This has the biggest affect while being pushed. With body mounted couplers the trucks are free to follow the track.
I still use several of my old Tyco cars without any problems because I have removed the couplers from the trucks by cutting them off with wire cutters. I then body mount a Kadee #5 coupler using a small piece of styrene as a spacer so the coupler is the proper height compared to the Kadee coupler height gauge.
And of course follow the rule: empties in the rear, fully loaded cars in the front.
I also run trains that are fairly short because my layout isn’t giant and because you can only really see for first several cars anyway. A train that is ten or fifteen cars long is just as much fun as a train that is 100 cars long. Plus less wheels means less wheels to derail.
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The other big problem with HornHook/X2F couplers is that the spring pulls the coupler to the side. This put sideways force on the freight car which transfers to the truck. This causes the flange to ride on the inside of the rail and will help the flange pick in points, frogs, and rail joints.
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If the HornHook/X2F would have had a CENTERING spring, like Kade uses, that would have made it much better.
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Aside from being so doggoned ugly, I think the HornHook/X2F is a good coupler design with quite a few benefits. It is nearly immune to uncoupling from grade changes. It is very forgiving for coupler off-center when coupling. It even couples better on curves than Kadee does.
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It was eclipsed by the superiority of the Kadee design before it had a chance to evolve, but I do not think it deserves the “total junk” reputation it has received.
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-Kevin
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One thing you may eventually do which will help is replace plastic wheelsets with metal ones. This will add a bit of weight and lower the car’s center of gravity, helping to keep it on the tracks. Properly tuned up, you’ll get less rolling friction, another plus.
When I came back to the hobby after a 40-year hiatus, I too had old cars with horn-hooks, not enough weight and plastic wheelsets. I’ve got almost all upgraded to modern standards now. It’s nice to see these old childhood friends running again.
