Lionel Corp. Vs. Lionel, LLC

Classic Toy Trains Forum
41

Debating today’s Lionel Trains vs what was is akin to debating whether today’s Generals (ie General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, West Point generals … ) are similar to what was 100 yrs ago. For most of us it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that up to 20 yrs ago Lionel still had the O Gauge market all to itself, and now it’s market share is down to 50%. (according to Lionel’s own filing with the bankruptcy judge a few years ago, as reported by ‘locolawyer’ on that other forum). That fact is not political, but the marketplace decisions of thousands of hobbyists. For many of us the strategy has become “don’t by the Name, buy the train!” While companies like MTH, Atlas O, Bachmann-Williams, 3rd Rail and secondary players such as Gargraves & Ross have filled in the other 50% some problems continue, often across manufacturer/importer lines. That too is not partisan, although less often heard on this forum and seldom in the hobby press.

Happy Halloween all [oX)]

42

Lionel liquidated and went out of business in 1993-1994. It is GONE( “W - E - N - T” ).

Rob

43

Rob,

Lionel liquidated and went out of business in 1993-1994. It is GONE( “W - E - N - T” ).

Hey Rob…I don’t care. I have bought and continue to buy Lionel Trains accross all the companies that produce them. I have bought other trains as well. As said earlier all I want is good trains and a reliable company behind them.

44

“Just before the Wellspring deal, Lionel Trains Incorporated purchased the exclusive rights to the Lionel name and about a year later the remaining assets of The Lionel Corporation. This included more than just the purchase of the “Lionel” name, but all of the files, office furniture from New York, whatever else was left. At the time Richard Kughn even joked about getting all the dust left from the original Lionel Corp. At this point, the tables that had been set in 1969 with Lionel the train company licensing from The Lionel Corp. had been spun 180 degrees. Lionel Trains now owned The Lionel Corp.”

Thank you; this is what I was inquiring about in my original question. But do we have any actual evidence of this transaction? I would fathom that while the Lionel Corp. now longer exists in the same context it did half a century ago, it exists in the sense of its “sucessor firm.” Lionel is not alone in this; many countries, social clubs, religions, political parties, etc. perpetuate their respective traditions and cultures even though the original no longer exists in its earliest form. For example, the most modern of electric locomotives are still locomotives and still pull trains even though they no longer put out steam or inspire novelists as they did half a century ago.

At least Lionel fared better than Marx, which went out of business almost entirely with very few corporate or product linkages between the “original” Louis Marx & Co. and the various holders of former Marx property and product of the current day (i.e. “Ameritrains”). Lionel LLC can claim that it is a direct descendent of the Lionel Corp. via Mr. Kughn and LTI.

45

Scout motors are not as difficult to service as many people believe. The drive wheels do need to be removed for major work, and it is very helpful to have the service manual pages to make certain everything goes back in the correct place.
As far as e-units go - replacing the drun and lower fingers is a simple job. I find it a bit more difficult to replace the upper fingers. The last time I purchased fingers, they were about $1.50 each. How much are those electronic reverse units?

46

I have been reading this thread with some amazement to say the least. The Lionel LLC is what we have today. Companies come and go, reform, transition, change, etc. There are plenty of resources that enable anyone to find the business filings for name transfers, legal information, etc. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, most scholars will not allow students to use it since it flawed academically. There are too many opinions, etc. for Wikipedia to be referenced and accepted as a source. Good layman information. I clearly see the passions that everyone has for their preferences and that is great, but please remember that not everyone is the same.

I like the new stuff because it works out of the box for the most part. I have post war stuff through modern. The postwar reporductions clearly are not, but then again the tooling and certain manufacturing techniques used then are not availalbe today. While a company provides a product, it still must meet the market demands of cost and making a decent profit on something that the public wants. Lionel is operating in tough times and so far is surviving. Lineage can always be questioned, but if the product makes you happy, then have fun.

IMHO the Lionel of today is every much of the Lionel of yesterday, and hopefully well into the future.

47

You know, I’m a new old hand at this. I got my first Lionel for Christmas in 1959,I was wide eyed at the age of seven, now, all these years later I found the old “Berkie” in moms attic. I intend to build a layout, I’m as wide eyed now as I was so long ago. I don’t care who owns Lionel, its still LIONEL, I’ll buy others of course, But I’ve just retired and this is something that I can just build on and have fun and remember those times so long ago, what I’m saying I guess, is that there is room for everyone, without all the brand bashing

48

Welcome aboard Doc.
Enjoy your trains.

This thread you brought back to life is almost five years old.
People should be able to disagree on the subject without any hard feelings.
Unfortunately, it rarely turns out that way.

There is also a lot of good, positive information shared on the various toy & model train boards.

49

Lionel as it was originally constituted with an American identity by way of it’s engineers employees, factories, showrooms and strong advertising presence had a continuity in it’s composition. It was an organic whole with various facets of activity. It ceased to exist.

What remained was the trademark, the name in all it’s various uses and owners. Yes, they are all “technically” Lionel and each has it’s upside and downside etc. It is not the original organisation.

The name in of itself means little except as giving the appearance of continuity.

Lionel is gone, Long live Lionel.

You can slice and dice this as you please to no avail.

50

Since I was the one who originally asked the question five years ago about whether there was any direct connection between the original Lionel Corporation and today’s Lionel LLC, I might as well make a small contribution to the apparent revival of this discussion.

Here in Canada, we have a legal phrase that says “The King is dead, long live the King” (or Queen, depending on who is on the throne). Essentially, this means that, even though one Sovereign dies and is succeeded by another, “the Crown” (an institution encompassing the Sovereign’s powers and authorities in parliament, in council, and on the bench, as exercised by a duly-elected government) remains a self-perpetuating legal entity that can never “die,” so to speak. As a natural person, the Sovereign is a custodian of royal power, withdrawing it or withholding its exercise as circumstances require, but almost invariably granting it in the interests of responsible government.

What does any of this have to do with Lionel?

Well, one could make the argument that Lionel LLC is to the Lionel Corp. what Elizabeth II and the House of Windsor is to Queen Victoria and the House of Hanover, or to stretch it back even further, to James I and the House of Stuart or Henry VIII and the House of Tudor. Queen, Victoria, George III, Charles I, Elizabeth I, and so on are all dead and gone. Like the original Lionel Corp., their reigns came to be defined as whole eras (i.e. the Tudor Era; the Prewar Era; the Victoria Era; the Postwar Era), which have long since been consigned to the ash heaps of history.

And yet, the powers and authorities of the Crown as an institution, together with a number of physical symbols of the Crown (actual crowns, palaces, government houses in Commonwealth countries, heraldry, etc.) continue to exist. So, while I’ll concede that the “original Lionel Corp.” is gone, Lionel as an instituti

51

Sorry, I don’t see it. Contrary to John Calvin, we collectors like to compartmentalize to set boundaries on what we are interested in collecting.

52

Yeah well, I’ve been behind on this stuf for a lot longer then 5 years :smiley: I’m with you CW,It’s one thing to express your own PERSONAL observations, likes, dis-likes, etc. but, personally, I don’t believe we need to resort to a, er, uh, compition of urination as to whos cooler than who… Geez guys thats as bad as “my dad can whip your dad” stuff I really enjoy the personal observations and the trials and mishaps of others, data and input, if reported honestly, are a great tool for any hobby, especially one as diverse and convoluted as this one.I really appreciate all the REAL data and reports, good or bad, I just don’t care for the bickering…

53

Coming to this with a background in gun collecting and the gun business let me say this…

Various gun companies such as Colt, Smith and Wesson, Winchester, Remington and others have gone though various hands since the founders passed away, but as far as collectors and enthusiasts are concerned they’re still Colt, S&W, and so on. Oh, they’ve got their various eras and iterations but they’re still who they always were, it really doesn’t matter.

This doesn’t mean there aren’t disagreements over the BEST era, but no-one says " it’s NOT a real Colt!"

Look, 100 years from now when Mike Wolf (or any of us, for matter) isn’t around anymore is anyone going to say “it’s not a real MTH” if MTH is still in business? I kind of doubt it.

By the way, the Springfield Armory in business now isn’t the old Springfield Armory, but that’s another story.

54

Are those guns being made in China?

55

HELL NO!!! But I see your point. I can’t really agree with it because damn near EVERYTHING is made in China it seems, no matter what it is.

56

Yeah! Lionel just hasn’t been the same since they started manufacturing them in Italy. Bring back the good old days![swg]

Bruce

57

Lionel had Trutrack made in Italy in the 1970’s. What else was manufactured there?

58

One more question about gun collectors:

They don’t see the difference between a Colt made 75 years ago and one made last week?

Barbie collectors do.

59

The less than successful HO relationship of Lionel/Rivarossi in 1957.

The 1922 establishment of Societa Meccanica La Precisa in Naples, Italy by Cowen and Caruso," for experimenting, researching and manufacturing samples, models and tools".

Bruce

60

La Precisa made tooling, never read anything about them manufacturing trains.

Forgot about Rivarossi, and I even have a few of those items.
Lionel isn’t really well known for their HO line anyway.