Here’s another one, but check out the ebay buy it now price: $1650 !
Jack
I don’t believe any of the earlier Lionel postwar ALCo FA diesels from Lionel were ever available with an unpowered B unit: #2023 (UP), #2031 (Rock Island), #2032 (Erie), and #2033 (UP). Is that right?
Some of the later Lionel ALCo FA diesels from the late 1950s and into the 1960s were released with B units: #217 (Boston and Maine), #218 (SF), #226 (Boston and Maine), and #229 (Minneapolis & St. Louis).
1.) Has anyone here seen how the later ALCo B units look along side one of the earlier AlCos sizewise? I don’t think any of the B units’ detail would match up.
2.) Has anyone here tried to repaint one of the B units to get a close match to one of the earlier ALCos?
3.) Has anyone attempted to power one of these B units?
Thanks for your help. Bet I’ll be hearing from Brianel on this one since he’s really up on this era of Lionel diesels and is a repainting maniac.
Jack
Jack, you are correct they never made the early alco with a B unit. Sure, with some work, you could power a later alco B unit, but it would be easier to use the later cheap motor truck instead of the good early motor and seperate truck. The two different combos might not run well together. I don’t know that the detail is all that different, I suspect the original tool was modified for the later alco front skirt. Well, My two Alco sets have made it through another sell time period in tact.
Jack,
A good source for answers to many of the questions you have posed on this thread is: postwarlionel.com.
And to clear up any lingering confusion, both the 2343 (SF) and 2344 (NYC) F3s by Lionel were dual motored with Magnatraction…and they run beautifully. I’m currently pulling 25 cars with one of them with power to spare.
I like the looks of the early Alcos, but don’t currently have any, perhaps because they seem somewhat undersized.
runtime
They are indeed undersized. The prototypes were very nearly the same size as F3s. Lionel’s F3 models are almost perfectly to scale, while the Alcos are obviously smaller. But they do make a better match for the also-undersized 2400-series streamliners.
The postwar Lionel site can be very useful. But you have to take it with a grain of salt. It includes more than a few mistakes.
Ogauge (Dennis H) and 3rail (John L) have the 2031 RI postwar ALCos. Does anyone operate a pair of motorized postwar ALCo FA A units (2023, 2031, or 2032s) to crank up the pulling capacity and compete with the dual motored F3s?
I’ve been thinking of picking up another pair of 2023 and 2031 AA to accomplish this if the bang is worth the buck and the condition is near what I have.
Jack
Yes. I transplanted a power truck into the dummy of my 2023 set. The units are now permanently tethered together and use a single e-unit. They can pull my 12 2400-type UP streamliners at any desired speed.
Jack, Yes same as Bob, I’ve run two powered 2031’s and its much better than a single. Also used to run two powered single motor early 2245 Texas Specials and that was nice as well, of course with the 2245 F-3’s it would be no big deal to add the second motor and powered truck!
Dennis and Bob…in pulling power, how would you rank your dual motored powered ALCo A units vesus the postwar F3 dual motored power units?
I may scuttle the idea of securing a non-matching unpowered B unit like a New Haven 209, repainting the shell to the appropriate RI color scheme, and motorizing it. The NH B unit detail still would not match up to the RI AA pair.
I know the actual Rock Island ran F1 ALCos with B units. I have seen photos of A, AB, ABA, and ABBA combinations. And I suppose in real life a railroad didn’t much care if the A and B engines matched up when additional power was needed.
The video link to Boxcar Frank on youtube shows what he describes as a 2031 powered unit and a 2041 dummy, but he makes no mention of perhaps dual motors in the powered A unit. The layout is the Chicagoland Lionel Railroad Club, and no grade is shown in the video. The cab lights in the engines are fairly bright, so I would assume a higher voltage used to pull that many freights.
The youtube videos show the postwar ALCos pulling 15 freight cars in one and 22 in another. Granted, the cars selected may be lighter than the 24XX series passenger cars. But based on my experience, I can’t see a single motored ALCo doing that without at least some sort of tractive assist (tires?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPIARnbkVLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhywesFtQtM
Bob, you mentioned pulling 12 of the 2400 series passenger cars, but you didn’t say which ones. I have to go back to my inventory as all my stuff is packed away (no layout). But I believe I have 5 of the 242X and 3 of the 243X.
Jack, these are 1994 cars, 16068 through 16074, two sets less one combine and one observation.
I just coupled the two-motor 2023 and a 2383 for a tug-of-war. It was a draw. They sat in one spot, on O27 tubular track, with both locomotives’ wheels slipping.
I think the early adopters of Diesel locomotives did worry about which units went where, often not paying the extra cost of couplers between units, to support their theory that multiple Diesel units were still one locomotive, not requiring a crew per unit. Santa Fe in particular made a point of running theirs in ABBA sets. The manufacturers co-operated with the railroads in this. The first paragraph in the operating manual for the F3 says,
“The F3 locomotive consists of one or more units rated at 1500 HP each…The 1500 HP locomotives are single ‘A’ units, the 3000 HP either ‘AA’ or ‘AB’ arrangement. The 4500 HP locomotives are ‘ABA’ or ‘ABB’ consist while the 6000 HP are ‘ABBA’ or ‘ABBB’ arrangement.”
When I worked for teh Depot in Lantana in the early 90’s we sold an all black LN 231 for $150. I knew then it was not a normal variation but wasn’t really interested in it when I could get a 671 Turbine or an “O” gauge AF 806 Northern for $100! Maybe this should go in the thread about stuff you missed!!!
Another thing to look for when hunting for a Lionel 2031 is to watch in cases where the numbers on the unit are worn off. Lionel in the final PW year (1969), made a 2041 Rock Island AA set that LOOKS like the 2031, but it a MUCH cheaper engine. Cheaper as in single axle drive, no magetraction, no horn, and a light only in the powered unit.
Ken
I think the only numerical identification on the Lionel postwar Rock Island 2031 ALCo FAs is the lighted number boards, nothing to rub off.
In the Boxcar Frank videos I linked, he describes the the power unit as a 2031 and the dummy unit as a 2041. Did the 2041 have lighted number boards?
Jack
Let me correct what I said, as I reversed it. The 1969 Rock Island AA alco was numbered 2041, both powered and dummy. The number 2041 appears below the cab on the lower part of the engine body, this is the number to watch out for being rubbed off, as it can make a 2041, LOOK like a 2031.
The 2041 has solid black, number boards, with no numbers, no plastic glass in the cab windows, and a 2 position reverse.
As noted the 2031 AA combo, has no 2031 number on the engine itself, but it should have 2031 lenses in the number board slot.
It’s my MCComas/Tuohy book that makes mention of the fact that the much cheaper 2041, can easily be made to look like the 2031.
Ken
Well, loosely maybe becasue it (2041) has a sheet metal frame and the 2031 has a diecast metal frame and front skirt. On the 2041 the skirt is part of the body shell. So you would have to cut of the 2041 skirt and add the shell installation brackets on the inside, with rivits to try to fake one. Heck, I’ve thought of cutting the front skirt off an old 224 Navy alco I had and to install on a nice early diecast frame. Maybe someone else has done it!
I’ve been wandering around the net, looking at some of the RI Rocket sets and the Marx #99. Does anyone have these, and what has been your experience? I have not ventured outside Lionel, yet, for this RR line.
Jack
I’ve been following with interest the “Top 5 Postwar Engines.” Fortunately for me, my father got (me/us) into the hobby at an early age, beginning by buying Lionel during the year before I was born…which tells you he was betting on a boy. And if he lost the bet, nasty break. He was stuck with them.
What is curious to me is that for the most part the gifts from my father are not the engine items most posters list in the Top 5. My collection is nonetheless priceless to me because of the zillions of hours of play time, some of which was spent with a father who worked 7 days a week and had precious little time to spend with me. But he made the time.
I know money was a factor when he started buying back then because we lived in an apartment, a family of 5 plus a grandfather. Tight squeeze. While financial matters were not his area of study or profession, he did ok over time; and we were able to live comfortably.
That brings me to my question: can anyone tell me the original list price differential on a couple of things?
(1) My cartons for the FA1 2031 and 2023 Alcos have a printed price of $39.95. Does anyone know what the list price was of the F3 diesel engine sets which were released during the same time frame?
(2) In 1950, the 3 window 2046 Hudson was released. So was the 773. I have the 2046 which is what my father selected. Does anyone know the list price of these 2 Hudsons back then?
The purpose of my inquiry is simple. To backfill some family lore about my trains: where, when, how, and why they were acquired. And what they have meant to me and my father. Being somewhat of a wise guy, I always think of that Indiana Jones Harrison Ford Holy Grail movie where the knight, protecting the Grail, deadpans to the greedy bad
In 1950, the 2023 was $35, the 773 was $50, and the 2046 was $32.50.
**Bob…**thanks for the help. How do you know this stuff? Anyone know what the retail price tag was on an F3 way back then?
Jack
Jack;
The Fa’s you refer to came out in 1952. The F-3’s that year were $ 47.50 for the double A and $ 13.75 for the B unit. I have Greenburg’s Lionel Catalog book that has all catalogs from 1945-1954.