Just wondering how faithful Lionel will be to the 2343 and 2344 F3 AA’s they’ve announced in their new catalog with respect to the drive system. I suppose I could justify the Santa Fe 2343 pre-purchase for $400 if I knew it was going to have the old horizontal motors.
I was surprised at Lionel’s price for these, and would have expected these to be comparable to the Williams F3 clones - $275 range, which makes me think that they will have the old horizontal drive.
Just a guess, but I don’t see any way they are going to recreate the proper drive system. They didn’t make the reproduction 2332 with nickle rims or a single motor.
Absolutely no chance we’ll see horizontal motors… come on the first CC’s had electronic E units etc. No offense but they are not that faithful, all they have more than a Williams is a pullmore motor and the name Lionel on them…I say that cause I belive its true, that said, I am waiting on the GG-1 set and would like to get the Virginan FM, but need to settle a little after the Red Comet (Boy I like that hot rod!!![:D]) So I wish they would be “more faithful” but will take what I can get…
Too early to speculate but it’s likely they will come with vertical pullmors. I’m sure people who are accustom to can motors would have trouble getting used to the noise that the horizontal drive makes. Either way, pullmors are more expensive to manufacture due to the wound fields and field stacks verses the permanent magnets in can motors. Magnetraction also adds to the cost. In that respect, the price difference seems appropriate.
John, I always thought the same thing until the first wave of CC’s came out. The list price of Lionels seperate sale GG-1 was $279.99 and from the back cover of the January CTT, the Williams GG-1 was listed at $269.99. Now street price will vary but they are still close. My point is, Lionel got it done and put a pullmor and magnetraction in the GG-1 and met the Williams price point so it can be done. So by comparison, the Williams F-3’s list for $349.99 and the this years Lionel CC F-3’s list at $499.99. Now to me there was clearly a change in Lionel’s thinking. Based on what little I know about marketing from my own company, one of two things likely happend. 1) Lionel realized they could not make the profit they required at that price point or 2) We (consumers) bought every last one of the first CC sets which re-enforced the old adage that you charge how ever much you can get away with meaning they can and will charge a premium and be succesful in doing it. The company I work for openly admits they can charge 20% more than our competitors (in my groups market anyway) and not only just get away with it but dominate the market. Now you do have to bring good product to the table but this way of thinking is not uncommon. So I’ll be looking at the rotary coal dump, reactor and the MTH Blue Comet set this year.
The forums were clogged with QC issues with the first batch of CC issues such as dry internal gear boxes, frozen fasteners, and miss marked paint. Several posters felt Lionel struck them too hard with the cheap stick. Maybe Lionel intends to boost QC. For all I know Williams GG1’s could be overpriced or like you say, Lionel is charging more because they think they can. The cost of pullmors and magnetraction does add cost and the cost. The cost can be amortized elsewhere but not erased. Hard to say. If the stuff is truely overpriced, it will clog the pipe line and get marked down. In the end, the market dictates the price.
I agree completely and thats why I said, I would likely be spending my money on the coal tipple, reactor, and Blue Comet. If they get dumped later on, I may try to set the SF F-3’s. I suspect that “we consumers” will probably buy them all up anyway!
I bought one of the first round CC GG1’s. I definately do not want anymore of the CC Lionel engines after this one. Williams is a much better engine and will run great right out of the box. Thats more than I can say about Lionel. Many vendors offer deep discounts on Williams. That’s where my money is going from now on.
Original postwar SF and NYC F3’s are relatively common and in nice condition can be had for the kind of money the CC series cost so it’s possible there will be resistance in that respect. On the other hand, an original UP work train in nice condition is pricey if you find one. My money is on that because I’ve always wanted one and it’s likely to run better than the original which has the cheapened stamped frame.
I purchased the CC GG1 and am awaiting the Milwaukee Geep… the GG1 hit the street at $175 shipped from Jims’ Train Shop, and to me this was a deal.
My confusion about the CC F3 models is that there are already so many 2343 and 2344 look alikes from not only MTH and Williams, but Lionel is almost competing with itself with the abundance of these diesels they made in the past 10 years still available on eBay. I can buy the 11711 SF F3, the 1996 #2343, or the #2383 made a few years back and not have to wait for the October 2009 ship date.
I guess I thought Lionel would remotor the CC F3 to distinguish them from the other vertical drive F3’s they made in recent years, but it is perhaps too soon to tell… If they do, I’ll buy one, if not, they are really not different from anything I can already get off eBay…
I have not laid eyes or hands on a CC of any kind. My question is this: internals aside, can I readily distinguish them from the postwar originals by their external appearance?? F3’s or GG1’s for example?
The crispness of the stripes, headlight lens, and blackness of the trucks on the GG1 is practically a dead give away. With the Lackawana, the same applies to the trucks plus the masking lines of the maroon and grey are crisper on the re-issue. An eye that’s programed with the originals can notice a slight difference in paint patina with both.There are other slight differences but the things I mention stand out.
So it sounds like they are using the original molds for body and trucks, but have changed the innards.
Seems like in 5 or 10 years time it will become quite tricky to tell them apart from the originals. Are there serial number distinctions? If there are no other permanent differences, then whatr is Lionel trying to do - dilute the collector market, or more likely, piggy back on it?
Either way, I think Lionel should have stamped all parts with a CC identifier.
There are many more differences actually. There are frosted windows in the CC GG1’s, there are switches on the bottom for horn and direction as well as an adjustable pot for sound volume to name a few. Also there is no slot for the E unit on top as these use modern electronic reverse boards. There is no way you could pass it off as postwar.
I suspect the new F3s will come with vertical motors since we already know they will have electronic signal sounds and an electronic e-unit (not origial). With regard to the comments about quality and price, we need to keep in mind a few things:
The Lionel brand is the differentiator. With over 100yrs of equity, it has more value than Williams, MTH or any other brand in the industry. They are doing the right thing by charging more for their brand. It’s what hobbyists and collectors want…the Lionel brand.
The quality of their products are not and never will be what they were in the 1940’s. The world is much different now. The only way to provide the same features of the original products is to manufacture them in China. 10 years from now, they will probably be made in India. That’s just the reality of the world we live in. I think we need to just be happy Lionel is still in business and able to still make trains with pullmor motors, metal chassis, electro couplers, and magne traction.
If all you are after are loads of features at a low price, buy a Williams, not a Lionel.
Yes and no. For awhile, Lionel and Atlas O scale products, which are priced about the same, had finer detail and crisper graphics over lesser priced MTH which was a bit chunky. MTH beefed the detail and graphics in the past couple of years. Williams was using paper decals and the graphics were often a bit off as well. Lionel has been putting out decent quality starter sets to the mass market that are priced below MTH. MTH comes with PS-2 but that is because you are not paying for the MTH name. As far as conventional classics are concerned, again we are paying more for field wound motors and magnetraction.
Given the falling prices for MPC era F-3s, why should I replace them with the new CC’s, am aware of the lack of sound but I use a railsounds box car with the MPC units