I was surprised to see this old thread up on top of the discussion. Remember, Dick Maddox said at the time (smokescreen or not) that Lionel needed to move overseas in order to compete. Of course, what he meant was to develop new products, which Lionel did almost immediately.
It’s important to remember that Lionel was subcontracting and outsourcing for parts and components long before the official move overseas. When I bought a Lionel set in 1992, the box said “Made in the USA” but inside the locomotive casting were the words “Made in Maccau.” By 1996, Lionel had admitted in their catalog that all starter sets and many other similar items were being made overseas. Top end items would continue to be made in the US.
It is a challenge for all the companies when the factory is no longer across the parking lot, but across the Pacific. Differering companies have differing success levels with quality: Williams does better for example, but they stick with what is tried and true as far as products and features. And many dislike Williams for their lack of detail and features.
The adult consumers who want the higher detailed trains have spoken and unintentionally won. It isn’t finacially for the train companies to put the millions into new products without doing it overseas. US production costs would be double if not tripled on many of these new items. If a new top end steam engine costs a million dollars to bring to market in China, well how much more would that have to retail for to do the work in the USA? MTH spent millions to develop DCS. How much more would it have cost if the work had been done totally in the USA?
I’m perfectly content with lower end products and comproses such as reusing truck sides from one loco model to another, regardless of prototype. This IS the way Lionel too, operated for years. Today it won’t due with many modelers. Remember the brew-ha-ha on the OGR forum over the K-Line KCC SD90MAC fuel tank… it wasn’t prototypical and many
Actually, it’s a bit controversial whether Mexico is in North America or Central America. The UN (a uselsss institution at best) says it’s in Central America. At any rate, whether Lionel trains were made in Mexico or Peru or Bolivia, they could STILL say “Made in America” in their advertising. That was my point. [:)]
I find it interesting/amusing that the very people who were responsible for the dramatic RISE in the cost of Lionel products and the move of Lionel to overseas production, the UNIONS, were the ones that griped the loudest when the company moved overseas. You can see this exact same thing happening over and over again in every major industry in the USA. Unions demand outrageous salaries and benefits and the companies are forced to move to where there is cheaper labor. There was a show on cable about the textile industry and how the unions finally “won” the benefits and pay raises that they fought so hard for. Then the company ended up selling out to a group that moved production overseas a year later. The people that the union fought to help ALL ended up unemployed with no future.
I like the postwar Lionel stuff. Especially the S2…my favorite loco. But you all can pretty much forgetabout Lionel moving back stateside. It just ain’t gonna happen. Welcome to the “global economy”. As far as the imported stuff from Lionel and MTH and others…I got no complaints. I’d rather have it imported and be available, than nothing at all. There is a finite supply of postwar stuff, and the price on that supply is going up like a skyrocket.
not sure what leads you to that conclusion. Post war prices have been dropping for years, and will continue to fall. I believe this is primarily due to the fact that the post war Dad’s are leaving this world and their kids are finding the stuff in the attic and sending it off to ebay.
Look at the prices in the most recent Greenberg catalog – not the pocket guide – and compare to what this stuff actually sells for- night and day.
For me, it’s a great environment to be a post war enthusiast - lots of material in the market, available at reasonable prices, easy to fix and will still be running after the imported stuff is a shelf queen with fried electronics.
I bought this post war 221 for $91.00:
This post war Santa Fe and a slew of track, switches, 11 pieces of post war freight, two operating cars, and a pristine transformer for well under $400.00. If I added up the Greenberg prices on all that stuff with an honest assessment of the condition, it would be well over $1000.00.
The New Haven 2350 in this photo was well under $200.00, and the Jersey Central 621 on the right was $65.00.
I agree, that taxes and the unions (and don’t get me started on the “nanny state”), will push more American jobs out to foreign lands. Companies are in BUSINESS to make a profit. I always shop for the best I can get with my disposible income. Be it e-bay, LHS, internet, whatever. I love the post war stuff and will continue to persue the bargains. I peruse the new stuff and if it is inexpensive enough, I’ll purchase it (and that GG1 is looking pretty cheap now…thanks, guys, for the Williams info). I’d rather buy American, but the pickin’s are gettin slim and my wallet is tellin’ me what I can purchase. Simple economics, I should think.
I am sorry that Lionel, et al, is moving out of country, but that’s economics!! I don’t work for free and I don’t expect anyone else to do the same.
The name of this game is called “mark up”. The less expensive an item is manufactured for, the more mark up IE: profit the firm places in their pocket. The illusionary idea is that these savings are passed along to the consumer. The average chinese production person lives on site at the factory and makes about five dollars an hour. That is why our balance of trade runs record deficits. It would be foolishly idealistic to expect Lionel to be the exception to the rules of the game. They don’t make the rules of economic policy. Welcome to the global machine.
I deleted all those pics you posted. Since you had NO S2 turbines in there, they didn’t interest me [(-D]
Take a stroll over to E-Bay and check out what the S2 Turbines are going for. There was one “minty” 682 on there and last I saw it was over $600. And the bidding was still going strong when I stopped watching it. I got tired of my jaw hitting the floor. Yes, some of the postwar Lionel stuff is pretty available. But much of it needs MAJOR restoration. So figure that into the price of the “bargains”.
Others are in VERY short supply. The 682 Turbines being the one I am talking about. They are also unavailable from stores online selling postwar stuff. 681 and 671 can still be found at decent prices, but they often need a good deal of work.
What leads me to say there’s a finite supply of postwarstuff? Well I think the fact it’s NO LONGER MADE is a pretty good reason. Plus people have been buying the really good stuff up for investment purposes. Which means when they sell it, the price is in the stratosphere. Just look at the forum posts for guys who prefer postwar over current. The supply and demand factor is catching up with postwar Lionel. The prices quoted in Greenberg and McComas’ books are pretty much out the window when it comes to postwar stuff. It’s now become “whatever the market will bear”…and the market is REALLY shelling out big $$$ for that stuff. Anyone who sells their Lionel postwar stuff at Greenbergs prices certainly isn’t getting the maximum amount they can get for their stuff.
Now if you know where I can get a 682 Turbine and 2671 or 2046 Pennsy tend
I find high quality post war at great prices all the time. Although sometimes I’m too stupid to buy when I have the chance.
Here’s a “minty” 2056 of mine that was had for under $150.00 on eBay. That’s less than half of guide price, and represents my most expensive purchase. I’ve never paid close to guide price for any post war item. Say, isn’t that a 2046W with a Pennsy shell? Why yes, I-think-it-is. I got another one just like it for $30.00 with a Lionel Lines tender.
This stuff is abundant. One just has to know where to look and when. Now is not the right time of year to be buying trains at auction, unless you like spending too much for something. [swg]
There is also a much smaller market willing to buy it.
However, it appears you are referring to “new”, “mint in box” and “excellent” examples. Having zero interest in that type of material jades my thinking as to availability, as whatever I buy - I run.
I’m thinking poeple who buy Lionel trains for investment purposes need to rethink that strategy. Anything that has BIG investment value, ties up a lot of dough, and can’t be enjoyed. The number of “collectors” who would be willing to pay top dollar for that material is declining. I believe that is a fact.
It’s only worth what someone will pay.
I showed a number of examples of very nice post war material picked up for a song.
There’s a nice 671 with a Pennsy tender on the left.
Post War stuff is cool, but Post War Lionel had a tough time with unions and strikes even in the 50’s and 60’s. Today, labor unions are a quaint anachronism of the 19th Century that still hang on to this day. My wife bought a brand-spanking new 1993 Toyota Carolla. We took it in to the shop Monday for its first tune-up. In the time she’s had that car I’ve had a Dodge, a Buick, another Dodge, and a Jeep! But they were built here with good old fashioned union labor, just like Lionel used to have! Jon
…why did I know there was gonna be a post saying that there is tons of super high quality Lionel postwar stuff readily available? I swear if I said the sun was hot, SOMEBODY would counter with “no it’s not, I know for a fact it’s cold”. Anyway, many of us are limited on WHERE we find train stuff. I have NO hobby shops in my town, so I am limited to E-Bay or online stores. There are also NO “train shows” in my area, so that option is also out. Obviously, if you live in certain areas of the country (Midwest and East for example), and have a plethora of hobby shops and hobby shows, you will run into more examples of postwar trains. I actually contacted a few Eastern and Midwestern sellers of postwar trains and have requests in to be contacted if 682 turbines in excellent-to-mint condition show up.
Frank: You are correct…I have ZERO interest in picking up a beat-to-heck 682 turbine. I have already scored a 671 AND a 681 turbine that need relatively little work to make them perfect. I am not all that crazy about rebuilding or repairing stuff. I prefer to run it too. I can pick up clunkers on E-Bay all day. That’s not what I’m looking for.
As to buying for investment purposes being a bad idea, no idea why you would say that. I have seen locos that had a LOT of run time still go for premium prices. If people want something bad enough, and it’s in great shape, THEY WILL PAY! “It’s only worth what someone will pay.” Exactly right. And on E-Bay people are paying through the nose for stuff. WAY BEYOND what Greenberg recommends as a buy price.
Yes…you have a very nice postwar collection. But WHEN did you buy those items? But most all of what you have displayed is readily available. Trainz had THREE postwar Santa Fe AA combos for sale yesterday and all were in excellent condition. They are ALL on E-Bay now.
For the postwar stuff it seems like many people want the same thing (i.e. 671’s, 675’s, GG-1’s and those Santa Fe f3’s), so for particular items with high demand you may see higher prices. Plus this time of year as someone else said on this thread, is not a good time for bargain hunting. It’s a feeding frenzy for some of the desireable items.
I’ve made most of my purchases from Ebay, because where I live, the shows that do come to town have a few vendors with postwar equipment, and they want top dollar for junk IMHO. Over the last few years I’ve seen fewer and fewer items worth buying in person. I suspect because all the good stuff is on Ebay now.
Patience and timing are everything to getting good quality at prices I’m willing to pay. I’ll wait until after the holidays to hopefully score some buyer’s remorse sales online.
