hey, i’m modeling the 1948 era and wont to model a spacific train for the new york central using a very common loco for 1948: the 4-6-4 hudson, but i can’t find a prototype. can you help me?
unionpacific4
Well…do you mean you’re trying to find information on a particular train, or that you’re trying to find what local trains were running on the NYC c.1948, or ?? By 1948 Hudsons wouldn’t be uncommon on local trains, they were also used often on mail trains and even fast freights.
i need information on local passenger trains on the NYC in 1948 that were poweres by a hudson.
New York City banned steam engines in 1908. I believe the Hudson’s were built after that date. All steam engines were changed at Harmon, NY and only electric power ran into GCT. So most commuter operations would have been on electrified trackage either pulled by electric motors or self propelled electric MU cars.
Not being a NYC fan I am not personally aware of as to what other cities NYC might have had commuter operations, probably Chicago and Cleveland, if any. I lived in the Chicago area from 1957 to 1984 long after steam was being junked at La Grange traded in on Diesels in the junkyard adjacent to the EMD plant.
There were many commuter operations in Chicago but I am not certain that the NYC operated one. I rode the Central from Chicago to NYC and back many times, and some of the trains stopped at Gary, Indiana and they could have been pulled by Hudsons until about 1950 or so.
Not sure how commuter trains came into it?? [%-)] A local train isn’t a commuter train. A commuter train connected outlying suburbs to a major city; a local train connected two cities (and most all small towns in between). I’m not aware of Hudsons ever being used in commuter service. (BTW they were introduced in 1927.) They may have been used on local trains in some situations (Kalmbach has published a pic of a Hudson on subsidiary Michigan Central on a local train c.1950 for example), but once they were bumped from the top trains like the Empire State and 20th century, they were more likely to be found in fast freight or mail train use where their 79" drivers could stretch out and use their full speed potential.
The NYC used Hudsons on its secondary line across southern Michigan in the 1940s. Somewhere around here I have an account a member of the West Michigan Railroad Historical Society wrote about riding behind a Hudson on such a train as a teenager, boarding in White Pigeon (Michigan), riding to the end of the run in Toledo, then riding back the same day. I don’t recall off-hand where the train originated- I think it was either Chicago or Elkhart. Between White Pigeon and Toledo, the train ran through the Michigan towns of Sturgis, Coldwater, Jonesville, Hillsdale, Hudson, Adrian and Blissfield.
The train was rather short, consisting of a baggage car, an RPO/baggage, and two coaches. There was some pretty fast (50+ mph) running, which is interesting to consider, now that most of the remaining segments of that line are weed-grown, sinking into the mud and good for 15 mph at best.
There was a local passenger train on the Water Level Route that was operated by a New York Central Hudson. I don’t think it was a commuter train (since it had sleepers) but it ran between Bay City and Detroit. More information can be found in Andy Sperandeo’s book Passenger Equipment and Operation but the general consist was a NYC 4-6-4 heading a baggage-express car, RPO-baggage combine, baggage-coach combine, coach, and a Pullman 10-6 sleeper. The train was all New York Central heavyweights except for the Sleeper, which was a light-weight Pullman.
Ghonz
About 1950, you woud see 4-6-4 Hudsons regularly assigned to local trains, ie, trains that made “all the stops” from beginning to end. As diesels came in, steam was pushed back to lower class trains, of which there were many. There was a great amount of traffic on the Hudson Division that served local communities between NYC and Albany, and even beyond, A famous one was the Upstate Special from NYC to Utica, NY., that left GCT at 6:15 PM and arrived in Utica, some six hours later. (A limited would make the trip in 4 hours, 26 muinutes.)
Hudsons were also assigned to local trains after shoping to break them in. You can always use that as a rationale for running a set.
Well being that mainline passenger diesel power only showed up on the central in '47 go ahead and run all the Hudson’s you want.
Even more fun is double heading Hudsons on a heavy mail/express train. Lots of Hudsons everywhere doing most everything passenger or mail/express related. Even Milk trains into NYC. Hell sometimes you’d see a Niagara hauling a milk train.
The NYC dieselized quickly from East to West. The first NYC “Division” to be completely dieselized was the Boston & Albany in 1951. NYC was fully dieselized by '56/'57.
I did some research on the NYC for my Twentieth Century Limited, and found two trains. The lead out of GCT in NYC, and the other out of Boston. They both met at Albany. Mail, baggage, and sleepers, no coaches. From Albany it was a race to Chicago. The Boston leg was handled by NYC subsidiary Boston & Albany. Boston didn’t like New York in town. The J’s, standard or streamlined would work. Besides the TCL, they also had the Empire State Express. The TCL was grey, the ESE was stainless. Where the ESE went I am not sure. You also have options of the J’s that were refitted after the streamlining was removed. Also, larger sand boxes were added to some, and others had water scoops on the tender.
Good luck
Dan.
The NYC had three divisions into New York metro area, the Hudson, which was electrified, the Harlem line, electrified from North White Plains ( I think), and the Putnam, which wasn’t. So it’s possible that local and or Commuter traffic could use the 4-6-4 into metro area.
The Boston section of the 20th Century limited was eliminated with the christening of the New England States…That was sometime in the 30’s right before the war. Saved a great deal of time because the 20th Century could just then stop -n- go at Albany…BTW the “stop and go” at Albany was exactly that. The Century only only stopped ant Englewood and Harmon for passengers and originated at either Grand Central Terminal (Train 25) or LaSalle St. Station (Chicago Train 26)…
The larger sandbox Hudsons were the J2B class which also had smaller drivers at 75" this was for higher tractive efforts required by grades on the B&A. About 25 J2B’s were built if I recall correctly. 79" drivered Hudsons used to slip on the B&A.
The B&A had a maximum ruling grade of 1.67%. Mainline speed was limited to 40-50mph in most places with 65mph allowed on certain stretches. Very twisty and curvy mainline on the B&A with a couple of helper districts.
During the war passenger power on the B&A was either J2B’s or dual purpose Mohawks, L3A’s and L4’s. With the advent of diesel power the J2B’s were transferred to the Harlem and Putnam divisions where they served as commuter power along with K3 Pacifics.
All J1A,C,D,E and J3A classes of Hudsons were equipped with water scoops and had 79" drivers. J3A had 25% greater steaming capacity (Conical boiler) at 60mph than J1E’s…
Empire States Express ran to/from New York, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Detroit.
MArtin
Hudson line was electrified only up to Harmon…
Wrong. That would be the Peoria & Eastern in November of 1950.
Hmmmmm…I don’t know if that counts!!!
My sources (books, etc…) all agree on B&A.
According to my information the P&E received delivery of 7 SW-7’s and 12 GP-7’s on Christmas of 1950. Are you saying that the entire subsidiary was dieselized in one day?