My modern era freelance model railroad CVR represents a bridging road between two major routes. BNSF and UP both use CVR trackage but CVR provides a helper service over a pass. CVR also operates its own trains in local service. What would be a reasonably plausible locomotive for CVR to buy and use for helper and local service? Would CVR have new or second hand locos? Would thet try and standardise or would they have an eclectic collection?
Cheers
Bill
Why are they buying only one locomotive for both services?
If the helper service predominates they will buy six axle power to shove the trains over the hump… with secondary thought for its affect on the track on local service. You can always use a cut of cars to reach into a spur with poor track to fish cars out… provided the spur isn’t too long. (If it’s too long tell them to get a trackmobile).
If local service predominates in the requirement, especially if track condition is a factor, they will go with that smaller lighter power… read on…
You don’t state era… OOPS!, yes you do… but you don’t “paint the picture”. If you’re really modern and big time you can use one of those AC things that looks like a tadpole with angled edges… Won’t be much fun for the crew switching a local though… unless you put it on a strap-on model aircraft remote control rig and let the engineer walk around on the ground…
I don’t know for steam but for diesel they will look for the top of the range that they can afford new or cascaded power for the helper depending on the cash they have available, the prospects of income and the performance their contract has to meet.
For the Local predominance they may be resticted within axle loadings. This could mean a GE 70 ton, a U23B or an SD9 (chopped nose or not)… it all depends… they might even go for a modern dual purpose green switcher with a slug.
What have you got the big boys hauling with? This leads on to how much back-up they need.
If you’re going up, then down your CVR locos will almost certainly want dynamic brakes.
In diesel your top favourite has got to be an SD40-2… always lots of them about and then plenty in the re-sale market… all you gotta do is get one that hasn’t been blown up. Bit like getting a cheap 2nd hand car. (You might even get the intermediate vendor to dump some weight out fo
OK a lot there to think about and thank you for your reply.
Its a profitable and well maintained road. The BNSF coal train is hauled by 2 x SD70MAC, UP manifest by SD90/43/AC44 and UP intermodal by 2 x GP60.
CVR also has a lease company so CV Leasing locomotives (Dash 8 - 40CW) are somtimes seen on home rails.
The other locomotives I have, and which I am not sure to paint in CVR colours or onsell, are 1 x U23B and 2 x U30C.
The U23B should be fine for local service but I guess I am wondering if the U30C would be appropriate for the helper service. Or should I buy a pair of SD40-2’s?
What about a Kato SD38? or SD45?
Cheers
Bill
One thing that you need to consider is purely a model RR thing…
Whatever you aim to run needs to be compatible.
This is less of a problem if you have DCC and know how to set it up for locos to run together but on straight DC you want to run locos from one maker together and not mix them as a general rule.
As far as I can tell both SD38s and SD45s tended to disappear faster than SD40s and SD40-2 and/or go into fairly restricted use… like pushing cars over humps in classification yards. I would guess that this kept their spares need local to the yard rather than having them out of service at one end of the system until the bits arrived from the other end.
As I posted some time ago my SD38s don’t have dynamics… so for assisting over a pass they’re not so bright. An SD45 would be better and (IIRC) you can get them from Kato, P2K and Athearn.
Real U30Cs don’t seem to have a good reputation… if this is correct I wouldn’t expect them to have held on into modern times and especially not into the hard work of helper service. I would tend to keep them but paint them for the road not the leasing company. Put them on MoW ballast trains, maybe “top and tail” with them. If the road got them when it had to because power was short and no-one has since wanted to take them off their hands they could use up their cost write-off this way.
You’re right about the U23B. Nice engine.
Overnight I did wonder about using a GP60M on its own for local work with a GP60B added for helper service. (Athearn for both). It would look good. You could even get crazy and send the wide cab off down a branch with a train while the cabless switched industries on a hand held remote control… but that’s just being mad [:D] This was based on my original misreading of your Q that you /the RR were just getting one loco… well, the combination would be just one cab… so they might swing it past the Board when they weren’t payi
Then again…
The U 23B could handle the local in the flat lands and one of the U30Cs could take it into the bumpy bit… maybe swapping trains at your location.
I’m wondering whether your helpers might have road slugs attached to ensure that the extra power they supply gets down onto the rails… this will apply especially if you have bad grades with bad curves and/or things get wet and slippy.
I’ve never seen or heard of a road slug with dynamics… but I have heard of brake tenders… can someone inform us on this please? I guess that you could invent your own road slug with dynamics… what would it look like?
IIRC some road slugs still have their cab… this would mean that they could back-to-back with their loco and the set would not need to be wyed.
One thing to consider is that both class 1 railroads are using AC power, that means they will be moving at a speed less than the continuous speed of a DC locomotive on a grade. So my suggestion would be to assign a regular CV road unit to the helper service or get/lease an AC. Chances are the BNSF and UP trains would be DP’d, have a remote control unit on the rear and wouldn’t need helpers. Dave H.
Why is that Dave (Husman, to avoid confusion)?
Thanks to Dave-the-Train for thoughtful responses. Very interesting, even though I am comfortably stuck in the steam age and don’t understand the alphabet soup of loco model names. [:)]
Hey isambard! I’m glad you asked that for me![8D]
As for UP/BNSF using their own helpers… there’s a magnetic anomoly in the mountain right over a curved tunnel going up into the pass and it messes up radio signals so Dispersed Power isn’t reliable. [(-D]
Therefore the CV has to provide power.
You might also do as the CNW did and have cab signals which would mean that the foriegn run-throughs had to be piloted by a home loco on the point. This solves the question of where the helpers go on the train. It’s not so good if you want to model signals [:(]
Otherwise just play with leased power…
Ok I have a classification yard at the bottom of the grade. I have put in a spur off the main for the helpers. Helpers could go on the point or push. The grade takes trains from the lower level to the upper level of a two deck layout but rails haven’t reached the upper level yet. The grade represents a climb to a pass and plateau so helpers are only needed on one side. I plan to put a siding or spur at the top for the helpers to lay up in and catch the next suitable train back.
Does DP Dispersed Power refer to locomotives placed throughout the train? The comment about UP/BNSF providing their own helpers - does this mean they would provide sufficient power to get the train between division points or would they place helpers where needed bearing in mind this is a foreign road?
Also the comment about AC/DC - is it usual not to mix types?
Thanks for all your help.
Bill
After reading this topic it sounds to me like the closest real railroad to what you want your layout to be is the Montana Rail Link. Consider looking for detailed info on how they deploy their helpers on their trains and on the run through BNSF trains they operate.
Some thoughts I’ve had…
MRL mainly used rebuilt SD40’s and SD45’s(rebuilt and unrebuilt) in sets of 2 to 8 units to push trains over Bozeman and Mullan (Mullan is a 2.2% grade) passes from startup until the SD70ACe’s arrived. I believe they use sets of 2 to 5 of the ACe’s now on most trains, but I may be wrong. I remember seeing and/or reading that the coal trains BNSF sends west over MRL are equiped with distributed power units (3-1 or 2-2 or 3-2 layout, not sure) all the way from the PRB and still have MRL helpers added to them to get over the mountains. Also remember that MRL, I believe, usually has more than one set of helpers ready to be used and that power may return back down the grade as light engines.
BNSF uses its own manned helpers on its line over Crawford Hill in Nebraska. For quite a while they were using sets of 4 SD40-2’s/C30-7’s and later 2 or 3 SD60’s with 3 to 4 different sets in use at one time.
Now you say that your going to have a classification yard at the bottom of the grade. Is that your railroad’s primary yard? Are you going to have an engine servicing facility? Your helpers will need fuel and sand regularly. Maybe just a sanding tower and fuel stand on your spur track.
In my personal opinion, if I were having to choose units for helpers, I would probably use SD40-2’s or SD45’s. If I modeled modern times and had a busy bridge line, I might go for AC4400’s or SD70MAC’s instead.
As for AC and DC units mixing, it happens, but for your helper sets you would probably want to use near identical units because of the different operating characteristics of the units.
this is definitely true. I’ve noticed first hand how crappy some engines run when the’re placed with engines of other manufacturers. Most of the time, it’s just a case of one engine trying to run faster at any given speed. To be on the safer side, you can even buy exactly identical locomotives and just renumber accordingly.
I hadn’t paid a lot of attention to your remark about the classification yard…
Why are you classifying here? classification usually happens at big junctions or just short f them… you are classifying to divide trains up for the different routes the consist elements will go forward on.
There’s no problem about this… your layout may be doing exactly this… with the junction off scene.
if you’re not doing that your yard can just be a staging yard… trains on long runs have to be brought in to change/refuel and inspect locos - you can change crews at the same time - also to have the cars in the consist inspected.
Hope this helps
Soo Line had a big yard in Fond du Lac. Just south of there is Byron Hill. They used many engines to push trains up the hill, usually one helper per train. Soo didn’t have dynamics, for the most part. Saw pictures of single U30Cs pushing, then running to the yard in reverse. Helpers on the rear can usually cut off on the fly, saving time. B&O used to run a lot for 4-axle power over Sand Patch, for road engines and pushers. Some roads stayed with all 4-axle power, goes anywhere. GP50 and 60s are supposed to pull like SD40-2s, under ideal conditions. The higher HP engines will move a train faster. 2 GP60s will pull about as much as 2 GP38s, but can move faster. EMD said the performance curves for GP40s and SD40s were the same above 12 mph, as in they should move the same load at the same speed.
There’s no need for dynamics if the train engines carry sufficient brake force to control trains down a grade. If helpers are only shoving and not assisting down grade they don’t need dynamics.
As for Geeps and SDs having the same output… This would seem doubtful… at the least why would RR ever have spent the extra buying SDs if Geeps could do the same work? maybe that isn’t what you meant…?
My staging yard is just beyond the class yard. The staging yard is intended to represent trains from two origins, say from NE and SE. Same on the upper deck but representing NW and SW. So trains arriving from lower staging and are sorted at the class according to destination. However the helper service was only intended for through trains which would not be sorted at the class yard.
Sorry I don’t have a track plan that I can post but it is similiar to the Emporia Sub from June 2004 MR http://www.emporiasub.com/lower.html
From the posts above it seems as though I should either put enough locos on the through train or spot a couple of BNSF and UP helpers rather than having CVRail provide the helpers. Saves a repainting job too.
The comment about SD & GP performance is of interest too. Recently I was looking for the Tractive Effort values for GP60 and SD60. Do SD’s have a higher TE or is their main benefit a lower axle load?
ie what is the benefit of six axles over four?
Bill
You are spoilt for choice…
You can…
Do you want to do a repaint? I think that tou’ve sussed out that you will need more than one loco on hand (how’s your painting skills/wallet/pocket book?[:O]
If UP or BNSF keep power at your location they’re going to have to pay for the trackage… this doesn’t have to be cash… they might shove CVR trains up the grade as payment…
You can ring the changes…
CVR units might not be held in reserve for Helper service - it has to pay to keep them out of other work - so you might provide helpers with whatever is available and compatible at the time.
Similarly UP/BNSF aren’t going to leave expensive new locos sitting around on someone else’s track just to push an occassional train… so you’re back at SD40-2s or similar… or back to leese locos again.
So many choices!
An embarrassment of riches!
[:P]
If it was my railroad or my client’s railroad, and the industry track could tolerate six-axle locomotives without having to replace a lot of ties, then SD40-2s would be a good choice. If the industry tracks couldn’t do that, then either GP38-2s or B23-7s would be a fine choice, unless I could get a good deal on GP40-2s, GP50s, or B30-7s. The 3000 hp four-axles have higher maintenance costs and fuel burn, and would provide very little extra performance in either helper or local service. I’d avoid pre Dash-2 EMDs unless they’d been rewired with microprocessor control equipment and were late production in good condition. I’d avoid any pre Dash 7 GE under any circumstance.
New power such as AC4400s or SD70ACEs is out of the question; it would just substantially increase costs over SD40-2s because most of the time it wouldn’t be doing anything except sitting around.
The Class I doesn’t really care if you push their train with a team of oxen so long as you deliver consistent performance.
S. Hadid
Best post in this thread so far! [:D][(-D]
6-axle will pull more at lower speeds. Most 4-axle power will pull about the same at low speeds. Once you get the train wound up, it takes more HP to keep the train moving. The extra HP is for going faster. B&O/C&O went in big for GP40s-GP40-2s.
Electrics and diesel-electrics have a lot of grunt when starting. As the speed increases, the tractive effort goes down, based on HP available. Electrics can draw from the overhead and keep pulling at higher speeds, while diesels are limited to the onboard power plant.
A SD60 will start a heavier train than a GP60. Once you get up to 20-30 mph or faster, it takes HP to keep up those speeds, and the GP60 pull about the same, figuring 2+ HP/ton. The per-axle loads are pretty close, around 66,000 lbs/axle. SDs are harder on track.
Some roads used road slugs between pairs of GP40s. This would give the tractive effort of a pair of SD40-2s at lower speeds (under 25 mph), with less damage to the track. The slugs would become ineffective around that speed, and the GP40s on their own would take over.
https://www.getransportation.com/general/LocoAnalyzer/displayjpg.asp?type=AC4400_TE.gif
The link is for the tractive effort curve of a AC4400. It starts out high, then drops as speed increases.
Dynamics are the engine braking force. The independent air brakes on the engine is for low speed, 10 mph or less. Sometimes, the jammer won’t hold the train back at 10 mph and you need to set some air or use dynamics, if available. Otherwise, you would need to set the air brakes on the train.