I know steam generators were added to early locomotives to supply steam for heating the passenger cars. I’ve never seen one. How big were they? Were they just a simple boiler? Were they automatic or did they need to be watched closely? What kind of pressure? Did they work great or were they a big headache?
Thanks
I presume you mean early Diesel locomotives…[;)]
Many early road switchers had a steam generator located in the short hood if they were going to be “dual-use.”
This site has some explanation of steam generators as well as some pictures.
Generally speaking, they were not a pressure boiler that stored a head of pressure. They were a demand generator that made steam instantly when fired. However, I do not know the fine points. They must have created some amount of pressure. Vapor-Clarkson was a prominent builder of them. They burned fuel oil and generally looked like a giant hot water heater. I see that there are Vapor-Clarkson operating manuals for sale on e-bay.
Larry, that is quite a link. I forwarded the link to Ricki; I expect to appreciate the section after the description of baggage car (she loves to see interior views of passenger cars).
Truth be known, I quit looking at it after the steam generator stuff. It is pretty interesting.
Amtrak’s SDP40Fs, delivered in the early-mid 1970s, had steam generators.
Larry, thank you for that wonderful link. I have seen most of that information in various locations, but never before in one article. This has made my day.
Bruce
OT, But, Wait! maybe not?
When were successful oil-fired steam generators first applied to electric locomotives? 1905? 1910?, etc.?
NYC, PRR, MILW to name a few, operated electrically-hauled passenger trains long distances and these trains would have needed steam for heat.
( An aside. Some street railways heated their streetcars with coal heaters, others used electric heaters, the latter putting more of a drain on the powerhouse and it’s infrastructure. )
CPR had home-built steam generator cars back in the Fifties, made from old box cars, to supply steam for pile drivers on Diesel cranes.
CNR had loads of factory-built s/g cars to operate on passenger trains behind freight Diesels in the Fifties and Sixties on branch lines where a high-speed true passenger Diesel would not be needed.
A 90 MPH unit on 35 MPH track is pointless if it can be used elsewhere and a 60 MPH freight Diesel is available.
A fully-loaded passenger Diesel might well be too heavy for some branch lines.
CP had one Sub where the S/G-equipped C lines were prohibited, but the freight version was permitted.
Thank You.
OS BU.
The PRR’s GG1’s had steam generators when they were built in the mid-1930’s, so for sure by then.
I would look to the MILW’s 1911 or so long-distance electrification - which included passenger trains - through the cold Rocky Mountains as the likely first application of steam generators. All of the others by then - except maybe the New Haven - were either freight-only, not more than 30 miles or so, or commuter trains, etc.
The Vapor company is till in business. This is the page for their steam generator line:
BU
Would you happen to know how difference in engine weight this was?
And in a somewhat related question, I was looking at old Alberta District ETT’s and saw special instruction for some sub’s where feedwater equipped engines of some classes where prohibited from entering spurs, and back tracks from one end, but non feedwater equipped engines of the same class were not restricted.
Were steam engine feedwater heaters that heavy, or was it a case of that much extra weight over the pilot trucks.
Thanks, BWM
CG
Wasn"t there an article in TRAINS about ten years or so ago attributing derailment problems with the SDP40Fs to the extra weight of the steam generators and their water tanks?
March 1970 Trains - “Some Classic Electrics” - the article on the Milwaukee’s Bi-Polars of 1918 said they had oil-fired steam generators. None of the other articles on other and earlier electrics mentioned that - other than the GG1’s as noted above - but I wouldn’t rule it out.
Thank You Mr, North.
I HAD forgotten the NYNH&H! and did ride same to Springield, Mass. behind an FL9 with a Hancock air whistle before the Merger.
Ditto rode the Central and the D&H in the days of steam and the PRR behind a GG1, all before the PC Merger.
We were like kids at Christmas when the D&H sent up their first PA, No. 18, not realizing the S/G-equipped RS2s were rarer in their own right in passenger service.
Oh well, The jaws dropped even FURTHER when the D&H got the Sharks! despite the tacky strobes up by the flag brackets.
So, anything is possible, I suppose.
I see CNR is running unrepainted ATSF Warbonnet GEs leading in Canada, so, hmmm, again!
http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/2010/08/c408wsantafejj.htm
My knowledge of the inception and subsequent expansion of US electrification is spotty, but, assumed they would, at some point, need steam for heat on thru trains that would connect with steam locomotives outside New York City ONCE the electric districts were extended out far enough.
I presume the MU Electrics would have electric heat.
I assumed the MILW Bi polars had steam from new in their 5-digit days.
Now, I have little here regarding the weights of C Line Locomotives, as when I left the railway I gave all my Opposed Piston Engineer’s Operating Manuals, Employee Timetables, and such to the Railway Museum for their archives so all can access them if desired.
Anyway, with the limited resources I have here, CP Form MP 15 of 1965 shows a freight C Line A without a S/G weighs 258,000 lbs.
The same unit WITH a S/G weighs 268,000 pounds.
The B with S/G weighs about 4000 lbs less having no control cab, etc., but, at 264,000 lbs still prohibited by timecard on some subs.
Regarding steam locomotive weights with/without Elesco pumps and bundle I cannot answer that.
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Thank you. Of course when I need to look something up I can’t find it, but from what I can remember, track geometry has to be the issue. I never knew before that there were situations where the stoker mechanism could bind. That is something I have never seen reported elsewhere and I am glad it is now recorded here.
I suspect the feed water heater, no feed water heater thing, is a straight weight issue through switches and trackwork that was probably obsolete the day the company bought something bigger than a Ten Wheeler!
I’ve learned something new today.
Bruce
On the SDP40F, part of the problem was where the water tanks were mounted.
On these, the tanks were up high in the carbody. On most other engines, the water tank was mounted down between the trucks.
Running a 6-axle engine at passenger speeds on some of the iffy track of that era, hitting a 2-degree or sharper turn, Surf’s Up!
Water would slosh around, and that would be enough to cause problems.
ATSF never had any problems with these units, and ended up with a few after trading AMTK some switch-type engines.
Shot of steam gen inside short hood of former NdeM GP38-2 9214.
!(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x218/MFJ_album/WSOR engines/Mexican GP38-2s/7-4-08048.jpg)
At least by 1916, as the MILW’s 12 EP-1 electrics (each consisting of 2 ‘units’) placed into service that years had them, per both William D. Middleton in his book When the Steam Railroads Electrified, and Charles R. and Dorothy M. Wood in their book Milwaukee Road - West . Neither book indicated that such smallish steam boilers or generators were any kind of innovation or novelty, so I infer that the inventing and use of “steam jennies” pre-dated that application by at least a few years.
[:-,] Anybody else notice the resemblance between the ‘cut-away’ drawing of a steam generator in that great link above, and a backwoods ‘moonshine’ still ? Or am I missing or misunderstanding an essential difference in the plumbing ?
Paul, I admit that I never had any actual experience with the operation of the backwoods stills, but from what I have seen, most were simply great big kettles with the vapor output condensed as quickly as possible so that the precious product would not be wasted in the air; there was nothing fancy such as coils of tubing inside. I do admit to operating a still when I was in college–we needed distilled water in the labs, and there was an electric water still in one of the labs. It was a little more sophisticated than the stills used for producing hooch–it was lined with tin, which has much less interaction with water than copper has. Also, the water used to condense the steam was run into the pot after it passed over the condensing coil and, in turn, was evaporated. (To make the most efficient use of power and water, the output was cooled only a little below the boiling point, and the flow of water was so adjusted–cool too much, the pot overflows; cool too little, steam escapes into the atmosphere.)
[#offtopic]On the subject of clandestine production of liquids, once when I was hitchhiking home from college, I was picked up, about Erwin, Tenn., by a man who, when I asked him what he did, said nothing. When we arrived at the North Carolina state line, he backed off the road and stopped by another car that had also been backed off the road. My driver told me to stay put and got out. After he opened the trunk of his car, I felt the rear end rise up as his cargo was removed. Once the cargo had been transferred, he told me that the
NP Red
Here is a pdf copy of a operators manual for a steam generator.
http://www.easy-share.com/1913082980/Vapor-Clarkson Steam Generator.pdf
Brent
The very earliest main line electric locomotives had steam generator boilers for heating pasenger cars . The B&O Baltimore tunnel electrics and the Hoosack Tunnel B&M electrics did not because they pulled the entire train, steam locomitves remaining attached. But the very first New Haven and New York Central and PRR 600V DC passenger electrics, including the DD-1’s, the S-1’s, and the EP-1’s, had boilers.
Some steam locomotives had oversized electric generators to power lighting in commutor coaches where stop and go operation prevented axle-generators on the coaches from doing the job. Examples include Pacifics on the NYC, C&NW, B&M, Erie, CNJ, CB&Q, DL&W, C&RI, C&EI. Strangely, the PRR and LIRR were able to stick with axle genertors in at least most cases, possbly because most short stopping commuter service was converted to electric mu operation early.