Need some help with logging camps, locomotives, sawmills, paper mills.
Did the logging camps use the Shay (and similar type locos) to haul the logs to the (river or sawmill) or were they only used for the short haul from the logging sites to the camp where other locos were used for that lengthy a trip?
Were the cars used (when cars were used) to haul logs from the logging site the same cars used to haul logs to the (river or sawmill)?
Did logging camps or sawmills ship pulpwood to paper mills?
The logging companys did not waste a lot of time or money on laying track as it was for the most part temporary. They used the shays, Heislers and climax engines to go out from the camps to where they were cutting timber then they would load the cars mostly with a small crane that traveled on rails on the log cars. They would then haul the loads down the mountain to the saw mills and unload . These engines were designed for the rough track and steep grades encountered on most logging railroads.
The mills were mostly located along a main line with better track and the finished lumber would more than likely be hauled out on flatcars or boxcars by regular steam engines as they were faster. If you could find the book Tumult on the Mountain by Roy Clarkson you would be amazed at the wealth of imformation on logging operations that is in the book. He has another book titled On beyond the Leatherbark The Cass Saga that I bought but loaned out and still waiting for return. I can’t wait to read it, but she gets it first.[slow reader]!
Some of the logging railroads did haul pulpwood and in West Virginia [don’t know about other places] they stripped Hemlock bark off the logs and sent to tanneries to treat leather. [:)] Hope this helps! Jim
Out here in Washington, many of the concepts you mention were utilized. Much depends on the size of the operation. Large operations, like Bloedel-Donovan, or Weyerhauser did run geared locomotives out to the cutting sites and used rod engines, both Mallets and rigid locos on the mill run for better speed in delivery. Other, smaller operations used what they had on hand for their full run. Whether cars were used throughout the entire run, depends on whether the cars were suitable. Disconnects, were not interchangeable, for example, where skeleton cars could be. Some operations required interchange to a class 1 or regional common carrier to get the lumber to the mills. Some operations did have reloads. A very good book about Northwest logging practices is “Logging Railroads in Skagit County” published by Oso Press. Hope this helps some.
I never cease to be amazed what goods you guys would put in box cars. Timber, sorry lumber, seems to me to be one of the least likely commodoities to put in box cars. How would they load it? Most box cars have doors near the centre, so they could load lengths only half the length of the box car. Guess 20 foot is enough for most timber, but still difficult to load. Was there a great gondola shortage?[?]
Just curious about why box cars were used for strange and apparenly incompatible loads - grain is another weird one in my view.[%-)]
Box cars were used for a variety of apparently odd loads: lumber, grain, automobiles, to name a few. This is mostly because the specialized cars: bulkhead flats, covered hoppers, auto-rack flats, etc. did not exist at that time.
John as to your question about loading lumber into box cars. Some saw mills also had planing mills next to them, this is were they smoothed and sized the lumber. Oak and other hardwoods would be sawed and then stacked to air dry in the yard. When most of the moisture was gone out of the wood it went into the planing mill and cut to a certain thickness and with. It would then be used to make flooring or furniture. It was important that it not be exposed the weather again or it would warp and discolor.
They would then load into boxcars so it would be protected in transit. Today they wrap the stacks of lumber in plastic sheeting before loading to protect it. I agree it would have been a pain to load but they did not have anything to cover with but canvas and it would have been unreliable.
Many older boxcars had a small “window” at each end which could be slid open and dimensional lumber too long to fit in via the door could be inserted that way.
I can understand the bit about finished lumber needing to be protected from the weather. Actually I think we would also have carried that sort of product in a “box car” (covered van).
Paul, AUTOMOBILES?? You are pulling my leg. Must have been small cars. Parts for automobiles I could understand, but full sized cars??
Automobile cars (longer than standard box cars with double side doors) were very common in the United States before auto racks (and over-the-road auto carriers) became common. In addition to motor vehicles, they were sometimes loaded with longer-than-standard lumber - automobiles being a one-way commodity.
In this age of four and six lane rural freeways it is sometimes hard to remember that, in the age of rail-borne logging and pre-superpower steam, pavement ended at the city line - assuming that it made it that far. Things that would routinely move by truck today were grandpa’s rail shipments.
Yes that’s why double-door boxcars were often labelled “automobile” on their sides, and are called automobile boxcars. They often handled parts too, but could handle completed autos too. Also, many automobile boxes designed for hauling completed cars had double doors on the ends that could be opened, these doors made it very easy to unload lumber from the cars. Check out an MDC or Walthers outside braced boxcar next time you’re at a flea market or the LHS.
As far as locomotives, it depends on where you are / were and how far you had to travel. Here in Minnesota, geared engines were less common in logging than were rod engines. That is because the logs were often being hauled a long distance - say 30-40 miles - to a river or to the shore of Lake Superior. There the logs would be floated to a city like Minneapolis or Duluth to be cut up into finished lumber. With a Shay going 7-8 MPH, an 80 mile round trip would take a day or two to complete !!
All of you have helped me a lot, can’t remember if I’ve ever read a request for information that wasn’t replied to with good solid helpful information. You guys have all helped me as did the discussion following my original post (it gave me insight beyond my request).
Sometimes the type of locomotive was determined less by the distance to be traveled than by the countryside to be traveled over.
In California’s Sierra Nevada, The West Side Lumber Company reached 70 miles in rail distance from the mill at Tuolumne, and operated with geared locomotives exclusively right up to abandonment. It was operating in extremely broken country, with severe grades and street-corner curves. The main stem was of reasonably substantial construction, but the logging spurs could get pretty ragged - too much so for anything with more than four wheels in a rigid frame.
Incidentally, that 70 mile rail distance was just under 18 miles as the U2 flies (the line was abandoned after F. G. Powers found himself in a Russian jail.) Judging by the maps I have available, the longest tangent was in the Tuolumne yard.
Chuck (who models a logging line that used rod locos exclusively)
Back in the days before the specialized cars that are prevalent now, just about anything could have been shipped in boxcars. It’s important to keep in mind that labour was cheap, and very little loading/unloading was mechanized. Here are some models of cars that would have been used to ship automobiles or machinery, although only some might have been equipped with loading devices designed for such lading. Unless in dedicated service, such unequipped cars could be used for almost any commodity. A few years ago, RMC ran a feature on the automobile industry. One of the photos was of workers at a loading dock, manhandling fully assembled Model Ts into a boxcar. The cars were shipped standing on end! Later cars, longer, and with wider doors, allowed vehicles to be shipped standing on their own wheels, often with a second level of them on racks which dropped down from the ceiling of the car.
This 40’ singlesheathed boxcar, from Accurail, was converted to an automobile boxcar by adding a half-door conversion kit from NERS’ Standard Car Co. division.
A 40’ ARA boxcar, from Train Miniature, was modified for automobile service by the addition of a second door.
Finally, here’s one of those Walthers 50’ automobile cars referred to earlier, showing the end doors, albeit not too clearly. These doors would be only on one end, and were hinged at the outside corners. The entire end of the car was open when both the left and right doors were opened.
Great photos and a lot of useful information as usual. I appreciate your effort.
Some of those buildings I could just lift off and put on my Australian layout and they would look right at home. I suppose it should not be surprising that Canadian and Australian buildings of that era would be rather similar.
I wonder why they bothered with the elaborate turret on top of the caboose. The brake man would only be able to see as far as the back of the box car in front from that vantage point.
John, you’re right about the view from the cupola, at least on straight track. My layout has so many curves that the conductor sitting up there could almost have a face-to-face conversation with the engineer or fireman in some areas.[;)] Some North American roads also used bay window cabooses, although it would seem that even these would offer a better view of the train when it was on a curve.
Well, I’m not sure to which 40’ car you’re referring, so I’ll cover ‘em both. The 40’ Accurail car is a standard 9-panel singlesheathed car. The half-door kit is from the Standard Car Company division of New England Rail Service. They supply four half-doors, two as shown, and two with the strap brace located lower on the door, for those who wish to modify the strap position on the car’s original doors. The kit includes two pieces of strap for that conversion, plus enough door track to accomodate one pair of half-doors. (I used the extra pair of half-doors on another car, and scratchbuilt the required door track.) Also supplied in the kit are doorstops and the lower doorguides. A very easy way to modify an already fine car.
The 40’ steel car is, as noted, from Train Miniature (now Walthers). I went and got the car to check exactly how I’d done the conversion, and realized that this is not a model of the ARA car, although Walthers also offers those, and the conversion to it can be done the same way. The car that I started with was the plugdoor boxcar. All of the cast-on door detail was removed, along with the large tackboard to the left of the plugdoor,using a chisel blade in an Xacto knife. I used doors from the TM X-29 boxcars, but any suitable 6’ doors will work. Most will need to be modified, height-wise, to fit between the existing upper and lower doortracks on the model. I aligned the right edge of the right door with the right edge of the former plugdoor, then placed the left door next to it. (This places the right-hand door slightly right of the centre of the length of the car, but this slight discrepancy is not noticeable unless the car is lying on its side, hopefully not a common occurance). This procedure is much easier than centering the door, then having to fill in the vestiges of the original plugdoor edge. When you have the m
It was the accurail one, you are good, got plenty of the accurail cars already, don’t know if I’m up to your skill level, need anything??? ( are we allowed to ask about trades on this forum ? ).