Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye.
Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye
Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast
It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery
Happy railroading
Bob
Is the gap to the dead section in only one rail or both ?
If only one rail, it must be the same rail as the gaps at each end of the reverse loop to which it is connected. If you have the opposite rail gapped here than at the ends of the loop, that’s what’s causing the short.
If both rails are gapped at the dead section, you may have their phase wired backwards. Reverse the wires and see if that cures the problem.
If both rails are gapped in each of the 5 places indicated on your diagram, it should work OK.
The two legs of the “X” each form a separate reversing section. I assume that each leg is connected to a separate PSAR-1 reversing unit. The divergent track of the turnout leading to the spur is part of one of the reversing sections, so you correctly gapped the entry to the spur. Even if you the phase wired backwards, as cacole speculates, the reversing unit should activate and prevent a short.
If the track beyond the gaps in that turnout leading to the spur is “dead”, you need to provide a set of feeder wires to the spur from the main bus wires.
Keep us posted.
Rich
Bob.
Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Pete
If that whole section is dead, then the turnout is not actually powerign the diverging route. I wouldn;t rely on the points makign contact to prove that power anyway. Instead feed the tracks beyond the frog with some feeders connecting back to the AR for that leg, since that siding area is part of that loop.
–Randy
I’m also looking at the 3-way as the source of your problems.
Do you have any other feeders into that siding and small yard? Could you have connected one of them to the main track bus instead of the appropriate reverser? If you’ve got feeders on any of the inner rails of the 3-way, that might be causing the shorts.
If the OP’s track diagram and notation is correct, I am not ready to blame the 3-way track because the diagram shows dead track beyond the divergent track of the turnout. So, that would mean that the track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track is also dead.
Also, since the entire spur is beyond the gap, the entire spur is not part of the reversing section, so the feeders to the spur should be off the main bus wires, not the output side of the reversing unit.
Rich
The turnout off the reversing section that leads intot he dead area - what brnad is it? If it’s an Atlas or Peco Insulfrog you should NOT need a gap there, there is no reason it should short unless the feeders to the tracks beyond are wired backwards. ALL feeders in that area should come from the same autoreverser that feeds that reversing section - the autoreversers are feeding the diagonals between the gaps you have marked, right?
–Randy
To one and all
Thanks for the suggestions. I hope to report back no later than tomorrow.
Happy railroading
Bob
Randy,
That’s a good point. With the gaps cut at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur, the spur requires feeders from the main bus wires.
But, as you point out, the spur could actually be part of the reversing section that the turnout is connected to, in which case no gaps would be needed at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur. In that case, power to the spur should come from feeder wires attached to the output side of the auto reverser unit controlling that reversing section.
superbe, we eagerly await your resolution of this problem.
Rich
After trying all of the suggestions at least once I came up with a short evertime. The last possibility was that there was a set of feeders on the spur that I hadn’t seen.
When I found no feeders from the dead track I reread the thread and saw where Pete referred to the 3 way wye as being the problem.
Using a razor saw I isolated it from the spur and the problem was solved.
How I got an electrofrog is a mystery. Now comes the nasty job of tearing up my first scenery and replacing the wye.
OR is there some way to make the electrofrog work?
If people who think we are just playing with our toys only knew…
Thanks to every one !!!
Happy Railroading
Bob
Bob.
The link I sent should be your best bet. Are you sure it is not an old Shinohara? An old Shinohara needs major surgery that would take too much space to print here. Perhaps it would be better to extend one spur track and use two turnouts instead of the 3 way.
A Peco Electrofrog just needs the insulated joiners off the four frog rails.
Pete
Huh? I am confused.
Your diagram shows a section of track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track.
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, how did that solve the problem?
When you say “spur”, what track(s) are you referring to?
Since the end of the divergent track of the turnout was gapped, was there a pair of feeder wires to the section of track that connected the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track?
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, where did the tracks beyond the 3-way track get power?
Help me understand this.
Rich
Hi Rich,
In answers ti your questions:
Your diagram shows a section of track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track.
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, how did that solve the problem?
The 3 way wye was causing the shorts as it turned out to be electrofrog as opposed to insulfrog. How I got the wrong wye is a good question when all of my other turnouts are insulfrog. I certainly didn’t read the box.
When you say “spur”, what track(s) are you referring to?
The track beyond the loop leading to the wye. This is the dead section
Since the end of the divergent track of the turnout was gapped, was there a pair of feeder wires to the section of track that connected the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track?
No there were no feeders. The divergent leg had no power and every attempt to power it resulted in a short due to the wye. Another part of the problem is due to my memory or lack thereof. I must have made the gap sometime ago to solve the problem and then started doing scerery and when I returned to running trains found
There’s something missing in this story. Insulfrog, electrofrog, or big green frog, if there’s only power applied in one place, there shouldn’t be a short.
If there was power applied beyond the switch, then I can see an electrofrog inducing a short if it wasn’t gapped at the toe end. That’s not to say that t non DCC friendly switch might not cause trouble when a loco goes through it, but when it’s just sitting there, there should be no short.
Did you ever do what was suggested, and use an ohmeter to figure out what was shorted to what when there were no feeders anywhere in that section?
Bob
Hi Jeff,
In answer to your question the section beyond the turnout had no feeders or power and there was no short.
I used the ohmmeter after every attempt to power the dead track. Any attempt to power it and there were many always produced a short. I tried closing the gap just past the turn out, jumpers from the A R to the track, jumpers from the loop to the section, and feeders from the buss. At each attempt when it didn’t work I changed the polarity to make sure I had it right. Nothing worked until the wye was isolated from the diverging track.
Superbe,
I think that there is a lot of confusion among us based upon your original drawing.
Let me ask you a question. Beyond the gaps to the rails of the divergent track of that turnout, were there any feeder wires at all on the spur track, the 3-way wye, or the three tracks leading off the wye?
And, if there were, did those feeder wires come from the main bus wires or from the output side of one of the auto reversing units.
Rich
Before you rip anything up I think you still have some investigating to do.
If you trully had both rails gapped beyond the switch leading to the 3-way in the NW-SE revesrsing track, AND you truly had no feeders to the any of the tracks beyond those gaps then the 3-way switch (which is what I assume you are calling a “wye”) would have NOTHING to do with it.
The ony way that the 3-way switch could be involved is if you have power feeders from someplace to SOME track beyond the gaps.
Before you start ripping things up you need to find those feeders and verify where you go. If the feeders are messed up, then you can replace switches til the cows come home and never solve the problem. Removing the switch may be “solving the problem” because the feeders are shorting back through the switch, but replacing the switch many put the short right back in.
Take you diagram. NUMBER the switches so we know which switches yare talking about and LETTER the tracks so we can identify the tracks.
If you have gaps in both rails at all locations on the diagram you either have :
Feeders installed improperly
The insulating gaps have closed up some place.
The 3-way switch is somehow defective and has an internal short (very rare).
If you do decide to remove the 3-way switch, completely remove it from the layout, disconnect all the wires. Set up your ohm-meter and on the single track end, touch one probe to one rail and one probe to the other rail. If you have infinite resistance then the switch is OK. If you have 0 resistance then the switch is bad.
If the switch is OK then your problem is back on the layout.
Don’t rip anything up yet! You have not gotten to the root of the problem.
If you have a short when you add power, there is a short there before you add power. Adding power does not add a short. (OK, there could be a high resistance short that you are not seeing, eventually we might have to look for that possibility.)
If the “dead” section is totally isolated from the rest of the layout (get the meter and check, both rails to both rails, the if you add power to the heel side of the 3-way, there cannot be a short. Make sure the wiring you are using to add the power isn’t shorted.
The point is you are getting ready to do a bunch of destruction, when a few cuts with a razor saw may be all you have to do. If things are as you say, and you replace the switch, the short is still almost certainly there. Take this slow.