Getting ready to start benchwork on the new bigger layout. Did some price checking at the lumber yard today, and found that I’m quite incompetent in that arena. I know we have some experts out there. Help please?
Why do 8’ 2X4s (Fir; $2.49) cost less than 8’ 1X4s (Pine $2.99)?
Would using 2x4s as framing for plywood benchwork just be dumb?
Cedar 1 X4s seem to be straighter/smoother/ truer than pine… is cedar a bad choice for framing under plywood?
I’ve seen lots of guys mention is it masonite? for fascia/ backdrops. couldn’t find such a thing. Is it the same as luan?
Would 1X3 pine furring strips be a reasonable choice for framing benchwork? (They’re cheaper).
I started to ask a clerk, but when I mentioned it was for my model railroad, away we went talking abut his old DRG&W narrow gauge layout, and then he got another customer, and we never did get to the bottom of my questions.[:D]
2x4s are an exceptionally common cut of wood–probably the most common. So it is cheaper. 1x4s are utilized less, so fewer are cut–unit cost is higher.
1x3 furring strips might be a little rough for your purposes.
Masonite is a low-density fiberboard material, available in 1/4" and 1/8" thicknesses. Luan is a type of wood–not thesame thing.
Using 2x4s for benchwork would be twice as heavy as 1x4s, harder to work with, and probably more unwieldy to work with. 50 cents a board isn’t that much more…
cedar won’t be attacked by white ants, I know that much! I would buy the 4x2 and cut them up the middle, to make 2 1x4, thus making the price for them per 1x4 only $1.25!!! If you have the luxury of having a circular saw. Cedar is ok. Danny
Haven’t worked at a lumberyard in 20+ years, but I’ll do my best.
Quality- look at the 2x4 studs, and look at the 1x4s. I’ll bet the 1x4 pine is relatively clear of knots, and has a relatively even grain.
Which is, of course, what you want for framework that is not going to warp/bend as humidity changes.
Using stud-quality might be. Even if you get relatively clear wood, though, it’s overkill, plus you’ll have more liklihood of running into things underneath (“darnit, that Tortoise is just on the edge of the frame…”)
Sorry, can’t help you there.
Nope, Luan is a type of plywood, which is NOT going to bend like the Masonite. Look in different sections, and check previous posts. Masonite is a particular trade-name, IIRC, so you might have the same thing under a different name.
Depends on the span. I’ve seen comments that they work well for narrow around-the-wall layouts, and they’ve worked fairly well over the past year for a “luggable” 4x5 layout I’ve got.
[quote]
QUOTE:
I started to ask a clerk, but when I mentioned it was for my model railroad, away we went talking abut his old DRG&W narrow gauge layout, and then he got another customer, and we never did get to the
Made your mind up? or more confused, which is what we’re sometimes good at(just joking everyone!) What sort of layout is it??? you said bigger, but how much? what sort of scenery would determine how much weight it will carry, danny
One thing about using 2x4s for your benchwork is when you buy them you have to get them assembled almost right away… If you leave them lay, they will twist into all kinds of shapes you never imagined… They might be okay for the legs but I wouldn’t use them for the actual benchwork…
I doub’t at $2.99 those 8 foot 1x4s are clear pine (no knots) but wood is usually priced on grade… The fewer knots, the more expensive it is. It is no more difficult for a mill to cut and finish a 1x4 than a 2x4. It’s generally sold in 3 grades… 1, 2, and 3, one being the best, and 3 being garbage (those 1x3 furring strips)… Most of what you see in the home centers is usually #2…
I see nothing wrong with using cedar if you want to go that way and have the aroma of a cedar closet for your layout… The #2 pine is generally acceptable… When choosing your lumber, particularly 1xX pine, be careful of knots that stretch the width of the board. They are weak spots and your wood WILL break at those points when it’s least convenient.
A tip for building your benchrwork, when assembling, use 1 5/8 inch drywall screws (if using 1x4) and use a counter-sink to drill your holes. The crap wood they sell nowadays, the ends will always split when you drive the screw all the way in otherwise.
Luan is a plywood type product that has a very smooth side. It’s generally used as an underlayment where a smooth surface is required or on backs of cabinets. It doesn’t flex real well without some coaxing so I wouldn’t recommend it for a facia or backdrops if sharp curves will be involved.
Masonite is a hardboard type material, brown in color, that comes in various thicknesses… If you are familiar with Peg-board, the stuff people put in their garages or shops to hang tools on, that is usually made from masonite… Some interior panelings are also made from masonite (the kind that have a wallpaper like finish). IF you use it, if at all possible, do your cutting outdoors. This stuff th
I have used 1x3 for all of my benchwork BUT the 1x3s are milled and NOT the junk wood that is normally used as furring strips.
Although I have to pick through the pile when I get my 1x3s I have found 8ft material that was completely clear (free of knots). This I use for the long pieces of the benchwork.
The other material I just cut for the shorter joists and not use the knot sections (again depending on how bad they are.
Masonite is great stuff in the 1/8” thickness double tempered and can be bent to a fairly tight radius. If you need to bend it sharper just soak it in water (I have left it out in the rain for a day or two) and then just fasten it in the tight radius and let it dry. It gets really easy to bend when wet but still holds its shape!
Luan is a plywood type material.
I rip 2x4s for the legs for the layout.
One thing to remember when using 1x3s for framing is to only space the joists 16” or less apart as the material is not as strong as a 1x4 but the cost is so much more reasonable. And besides the 1x4 joists really should not be much wider that 16” on center anyway.
Cedar has a great aroma, but I believe it is also very springy. Your narrow guage clerk may be able to give you a little more insight into its pluses and minuses. In addition you might ask about MDF (medium density fiberboard) for facia, it might get you into the Masonite area of the yard. Finally firing strips might make good inexpensive “L-Girders” for your construction needs.
Will
One thing we model railroaders tend to do is OVERbuild benchwork. A “heavy” HO scale engine weighs MAYBE a pound. We don’t need to waste out money on 2x4s, 4x4s and 3/4" AC birch plywood. Cheap, rough and dirty is ALL we need to get quality results for layouts. And if you’re planning on constructing your benchwork witht he idea of WALKING on it, ask yourself: “why?” We’re building a train layout, not a new wing to our house!
I’m all in favor of minimalist layout construction. My last layout was 1/4" Lauan (the correct spelling) plywood and 2" foam. The biggest dimensional lumber I used was 8’ long 2x2s, with 1x2 bracing. I built a 8x25 three level layout by myself in three weekends, and it was rock solid. I’m 6’2" and weigh 225, and could walk on the lower level.
With that said, and a lifetime as a farm kid (and a first job in a lumberyard) building everything under the sun under my belt, here’s my answers to your questions:
Simple: the less cuts needed to produce the stick, the less per linear foot the stick costs.
IMO, yes! Why not use landscaping timbers (4x6), which can be found on sale for $1.89?
Cedar’s big advantage over other woods is that it’s rot resistant. But…it’s weaker than most woods, it attracts more wood-eating insects, and changes dimension with humidity swings more dramatically than other woods. I only use cedar for lining closets and burning.
I’m only going to touch on a couple subjects here. First of all, the 2x4 are likely going to be green which means that you will have a certain amount of twisting and turning unless you allow for that in your design. The difference in price is the kind of wood. Piine cost more than fir. The grade of pine you are going to get, without paying more is going to be about the same as the fir. Most of the stuff you get at a Lowe’s, Home Depot, etc. is made for homeowner-do-it-yourselfers that don’t know any better. Contractors deal with lumber companies and get discounts that bring the higher quality lumber into line with the discount stores.
That said, I’m going to rip my benchwork out of 3/4 plywood. They will be straight, won’t warp, I will not have to compensate in any way for irregularities. My choice based on 20 years as a licenced contractor.
I had brought home some scrap 1/2 inch Plywood strips that were headed to the dumpster at my work. There was about 175 of them and they were 6 inches wide and 8 feet long.
I put my table saw to work and ripped and dadoed some of them down to fabricate wooden I-beams. I used these for the subframe and legs for my layout.
It was alot of work, but it was cheap. And so far, everything is as solid as a rock.
The Masonite-like material I’m using is the stuff they use for bathroom shower walls. It has a thin plastic layer, and comes in 4x8 foot sheets. I bought one big sheet of white, which works nicely for control panels.
The prices you quoted are 2x4 fir and 1x4 pine. Fir is “stud wood” - good for framing, but prone to some warpage if not immediately used. Pine is a finer wood often used in finish carpentry, and less prone to warpage. Up here we more often see spruce or “SPF” lumber for framing. The SPF is “spruce/pine/fir” - mixed lumber at an economical price. I built my last layout’s benchwork out of 1x4 and 1x2 SPF and it worked fine, but I spent a bit of time picking my boards carefully.
There’s no real need for 2x4 framing in a layout - even if I found 2x4s of the same quality cheaper than 1x4s, I’d rip them into 1x4s and use them that way. The extra strength of a 2x4 is overkill.
Cedar is intended for special applications such as outside construction (for its natural bug and rot resistance) and lining cabinets (for its aroma). It’s usually very expensive. It’d be like gold-plating the frame of your car for rust protection!
Luaun is a type of cabinetry plywood, and a bit pricey. Masonite is a brand name of tempered hardboard, which is much less expensive and more suitable fascia and backdrops.
The 1x3 furring strips might make decent framing, but if they’re cheaper than equal-size fir then they’re probably pretty green, and more prone to warpage.
I’d be inclined to use kiln-dried spruce, fir or SPF 1x4 stock for framing a layout, or perhaps plywood ripped to the sizes I need (I have a table saw).
Hope some of this helps!
[quote]
QUOTE: Why do 8’ 2X4s (Fir; $2.49) cost less than 8’ 1X4s (Pine $2.99)?
Would using 2x4s as framing for plywood benchwork just be dumb?
Cedar 1 X4s seem to be straighter/smoother/ truer than pine… is cedar a bad choice for framing under plywood?
I’ve seen lots of guys mention is it masonite? for fascia/ backdrops. couldn’t find such a thing. Is it the same as luan?
Would 1X3 pine furring strips be a reasonable choice for framin
Masonite is a brand name for fibreboard, it’s made from long fibres of wood , steamed and compressed, no glue or binding agent is used, it is not waterproof, shower stall panels are coated on one side with a thick layer of plastic, these above replies are excellent.
Wow. I asked and I received. You guys are a great help. I need to sort through it all again to figure out my choices. One more question. Several of you mentioned ripping 3/4" plywood instead of using dimensional pine. Can you pre-drill and screw into the end of it to attach, and have a reliable joint?
(I just wi***here was a “Life Forum” like this one where ALL my nagging questions of the universe could be answered so thoroughly, accurately and quickly.[:D])
A qualified yes. If the plywood is a better quality, no problem. You want to stay away from cheaper stuff like CDX. One thing to remeber is that in this case, there is not a lot of pressure on the joint itself. You weight bearing occurs on the joint between the upright and the cross members. That will be screwd cross grain and can with stand several thousand pounds of shear.
The others just about covered it all. Using plywood for framing is ok but it usually requires 1x1 or 3/4 x3/4 wood blocks at the joints. Screw into the blocks into the plywood in each direction. The screws will not hold as good screwed into the ends of plywood, the plys can and will often separate I have used all the above methods.
You can glue the blocks at the joints if you never want to reuse the wood or change anything. I never use the glue, never know about the future. Hope all this helps.
Cedar is too expensive to use for bench work as a rule. That said I got a bunch of #1 clear for free and used it. Hey the price was right.