Everyone involved seems to have a favorite single station location for Madison - the airport 6 miles north, Yahara 1.7 miles east of the Capitol between Washington Av and 1st St, Monona Terrace 0.2 mile southeast of the Capitol, and The Kohl Center 0.8 west of the Capitol in the southeast corner of the University of Wisconsin Campus.
Why just one? Let me throw in my [2c].
At a minimum, Hiawathas from Milwaukee and Chicago need to go to Monona Landing within walking distance from the Capitol. Hiawathas could just as easily continue to The Kohl Center, Randall Av near the stadium and the campus center and Highland Av at the Veterans Hospital and new university hospital and clinics, all destinations made convenient by extended service.
A stop at the proposed Yahara site would not be possible for continuing to the capitol and university; and is a poor compromise for eventual service from the north. A suburban stop farther east near the East Towne Mall would be a better idea until a local rail service is instituted to the Dade County Airport which would provide more frequent connections to the Capitol and University.
A local rail transit service could run from Route 19 (at I-39/90/94) north of Madison to the Dade Co Airport, Commercial Av, E Washington St, Monona-Capitol, W Washington-Kohl, Randall Av, Highland Av-VA, Shorewood Bl, Whitney Wy, Parmenter St-Middleton, and Deming Wy-Middleton.
Yup. I think we should have rail service to the Dade Co Airport, and we should also have a stop in Broward Co. That way I can take a train straight to see the family in Florida without bothering with changing planes in Chicago, Memphis, or Atlanta.
I agree that the Madison trains need to go to Madison – not the Dane County Airport. I am OK with the trains going to (or near) the airport, but only if it is a stop on the way into Madison – or the end of the line after dropping most passengers off in Madison. It would seem obvious that students would be a significant percentage of the passengers. It also seems like there may be some lawmakers that would like taking the train. Maybe we can talk some of them into getting involved?
Well, judging from what I’ve seen and experienced while living in the area, the students have no problem at all going to the airport. They have no problems getting to the local Interstate highway, either.
The track alignment going through downtown presents a problem, though. I think it would be inefficient, and an operational headache, making such a long reverse movement just to get to the near west side of the capitol. Remember, this service is just the first part of eventual service between Chicago and Saint Paul, via Madison and Milwaukee.
Some of the posters here do not realize just how far some of those movements would be, or how far they would take the trains from the main line, or how much time each move backing in to and out from a station close to the Capitol Square would be.
The only way we could do this would be to use the WSOR Waukesha - MIlton - McFarland sub, and then have the route go past the airport on the M & P.
I also wonder how those who suggest a downtown station would address the issue of the paucity of parking. Where ever the station will be, there will have to be plenty of parking. Like a parking ramp.
These trains are push-pull, so a backing move is a question of an engine driver walking 600 feet from one cab to the other.
Is this worth it, using an intercity train as its own feeder connection? Mind you, that train is not going to operate at 110 MPH through the Isthmus.
John Kneiling’s Integral Train theory emphasized intermodal over branch line operations. The theory also emphasized intact consists over switching, and did not rule out running an integral train over a branch line to collect its load prior to heading out on the main line.
On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O’Hare?
As the tag line from one of those Star Trek movies, the human adventure is just beginning.
I agree totally that a single airport station would not be competitive with either bus or driving owing to much greater inconvenience of the location and additional travel time. Chicago-Madison Hiawatha service should exploit the opportunity for walking to the Capitol and University destinations. Legislators are a very small number of travelers compared to staff, lobbyists and interest groups, and state agency employee travel to the Capitol. Universities also generate substantial non-student travel for research and services and for health care at hospitals and clinics.
It should be Downtown Madison, the airport alone is ridiculous. When I lived in Wisconsin and you were a student at UW Madison took the Badger Bus from Goerke’s Corners in Brookfield, WI. Amtrak has to at least be competitive in location with the Bus Service, IMO.
Since I have no first hand knowledge of the physical layout of Madison the answer appears to me/.
Will the route CHI - Madison at least temporary termination in Madison. If so then go to downtown and the University. I
When service to MSP - Madison is started
a. Then consider a station location for HSR through service that will not slow service and keep the downtown station for terminating service or slower through service.
b… The service direct to downtown Madison from MSP could also go Madison - Janesvillev- CHI…
Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
Only the ex-CNW Janesville-Madison via Evansville is gone. The ex-MILW WSOR Janseville-Madison via Milton Jct and Stoughton remains.
But the issue is there aren’t enough funds to rehab track to 90-110 passenger standards in the existing corridor to the Twin Cities (and it’ll be a major rebuild between Watertown and Madison and then later between Madison and Portage) in addition to Janesville-Madison (or Chicago-Janesville-Madison).
I understand the arguments for extending the service to downtown and UW. I just think the (eventual) slow-speed multiple-grade-crossing in-and-out reverse move is untenable for the Chicago-Twin Cities service. I have to think it would add an hour (or more) to the trip duration compared with the airport pause.
The following two options could work IMHO:
Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison’s eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street. This line crosses the planned Sun Prairie/Madison Hiawatha route a short distance NE of this possible depot site allowing a relatively low cost connection, with the resulting approximate 90 degree curve to Johnson St would position the consist in the NW direction to connect to the eventual Madison-Portage route to the Twin Cities. Shortcomings: it’s still not downtown, but quite a bit closer than the airport or where an airport connector would cross E Washington. Additional grade crossing protection costs compared to all-new dedicated airport connecting the two lines far NE Madison. Advantages: no reverse move, reduced grade crossing protection costs compared with downtown run.
Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location. This service (did I mention free?) would be timed to each and every Hiawatha arrival. Shortcomings: it’s a mode change
I agree that these are the only 2 viable options for the next 3 years or so. As much as I’d like to see UW students be able to walk from campus to a new rail station nearby, 10 mph track pretty much rules that out. I don’t know how serious plans are for commuter rail service from Middleton - Madison - Sun Prairie. Track would need to upgraded, new equipment (or used bilevels) acquired, new stations built. Meanwhile, the Badger/Greyhound depot on West Washington was demolished last fall. It’s tough to get from Chicago or Milwaukee to downtown Madison by public transportation anymore…
They tell me that the Badger Bus to Milwaukee stops at the University of Wisconsin-Madison Memorial Union, 800 Langdon Street – with the Van Galder bus operating from there, Memorial Union has become the new public transportation hub that appears to be off the radar screen of every policy maker. No, this is not downtown Madison, just at the opposite end of State Street from downtown Madison.
A couple things. One is that now that the 800 million in ARRA money has been announced, everyone and his brother, myself included, has become a transportation planner and has ideas on where the train should go. This thing has been on the drawing boards for years, but now, perhaps when it is to late to change things without jacking up the costs, everyone has an opinion.
Two, the original plan was for a medium-speed 110 MPH train to pass through Madison on the way to St Paul. The 800 million only takes this thing as far as Madison. Yes, St Paul is “the next phase”, but one can read the coffee grounds and squirrel entrails to figure out that this “first phase” is all we are going to get in the lifetimes of a lot of people. This first phase, the 8 billion in ARRA rail money, is perhaps the last-best-chance to demonstrate what public capital spending on rail can do before there is even any consideration of a “second phase.”
Is Madison that big of a market to justify an 810 million dollar expenditure on a train? I guess this is also a fine time to be asking that question now that “we got the money.” Is this train going to “work” if you have to make a 15 minute trip due north of the Capitol to park and then board this train?
I guess I got into “the act” too. I posed the hypo
Madison Metro Transit System (608) 266-4466 TDD (608) 267-1143 Website: www.mymetrobus.com
Route 20 runs between the North Transfer Point and East Towne Mall via the Airport every thirty minutes during weekdays, and hourly weeknights, weekends and holidays. For service from the Airport to downtown Madison or the UW campus area, passengers should board buses reading “Route 20 - North Transfer Point.” Buses reading “Route 20 - East Towne Mall” would carry passengers to points east of the airport, including the MATC campus area, and eventually, East Towne Mall.
Courtesy Vehicles
The following area hotels may have a courtesy vehicle to handle your transportation to or from the Dane County Regional Airport. You may use the courtesy phone located at the hotel board between Bag Claims 1 and 2, or call your hotel directly:
It should be noted that some of the most sucessfull stations on the NEC are not, or, at least were not, built in “downtown”. 30th St in Phila is a mile from Center City Phila. Penna Sta in Baltimore is at least a mile from downtown Baltimore. Even South Sta. in Boston is a hike from the center of town.
In a “sprawly” area, good roads and parking are probably more important than being near the traditional town center.
Being large trip generators doesn’t mean optimal. Philadelphia and Baltimore may have good connections to downtown; but how do trip attraction rates compare with other cities? How many more travelers will fly or drive simply because a transfer is needed to reach a downtown business destination? Obviously, Philadelphia thought downtown access was vital and a priority for suburban services. Is there a corresponding difference in the percentages of those originating or terminating within walking distance or a short cab ride of Penn Station New York rather than Wall Street?
My experience with Springfield, Illinois is that the close proximity to the State Capitol contributes to substantial ridership during sessions. I would suspect the same could be true at Madison. Likewise, additional stops at campus locations within walking distance of major travel generators also would attract much more ridership to Madison from the Milwaukee Area and Racine. Traffic from Madison is more dispersed and I would agree needs to have convenient road access and sufficient transit service and parking.
I’m not train-savvy, but I’m very interested in the fate of the Madison station. Could anyone shed some light on what might be some really uninformed questions from a train / public transport newbie?
What’s the advantage of putting the station at the airport, in the absence of a commuter rail line or bus hub? I can’t imagine we’re going to get too many people coming from Milwaukee or Chicago to catch a plane in Madison – our airport is too little. But is there some other forward-thinking urban planning reason to have the station there?
From the Yahara Station proposals, I thought that location would eliminate the backing-out problem that would come with a Monona Terrace / Kohl Center location. But are there other problems with the existing track that would still make that location unworkable?
I also thought that the HSR route is already set, and that it’s expected to go past the proposed Yahara Station site whether there’s a station there or not. Is that not right?
Does anyone know of any competing site plans – actual plans – other than the airport and Yahara? I keep hearing murmurs of other possible sites, but I haven’t been able to find any actual proposals.
The major advantage the airport location offers is parking, and a parking ramp. Other spots closer to downtown are very constrained in their parking offerings.
If the Yahara station proposal is at the East Washington Ave location, the main problem is (again) limited parking opportunities, and also a tough spot for trains such as the Empire Builder (1400 feet long at certain times of the year). We would have to pull through and not block the road, in order to stop at the station.
Correct. The proposed station is at the present day location of the Fiore (sp?) Shopping center.
I don’t know. Maybe the site of the former MILW station on West Washington Ave – though that requires a back-up move!
Service from the Twin Cities will not arrive soon enough for morning trips to Milwaukee, Chicago, and intermediate points. Similarly, trains to the Twin Cities will not provide later service to Madison. As a result, at least a couple trains must be based in Madison; and Madison turns may need to supplement Twin Cities trains.
The dispersed nature of travel from Madison allows some freedom in finding a station site that is relatively central to the area. This would rule out the airport site. Travel to Madison has some major travel attractions in the Capitol and the University. These would be very convenient to an existing rail line and could be exploited more fully.
A more direct connection to downtown and the campus area may be possible with rebuilding the former Milwaukee route along Eastwood and Wilson beginning at the former MR-CNW crossing. With adequate right of way control, 40-60 mph may be possible. I don’t know if the cost, including rebuilding the streets, would be justified with the limited service.
That appears to be a long range plan. In the short run it appears to me to just get a stop along the MKE - MSP route. That appears to follow the incremental approach that has been sucessfully done in Europe especially France. Also the UK.