I’ve just finished modifying my 8 1/2 in. dia.Atlas N scale turntable to accomodate my 10 1/2 in. Big Boy,wich I’ve had fun doing.But the operation did raise a question to my mind…what did railroad companies do when such a need happened?
To my knowledge,the bigger steamers started showing up in the latter part of the steam era so how did U.P. for instance,deal with their Big Boy’s dimensions?Did they enlarge their roundhouse/turntable assemblies or simply build a second engine shed at the end of a length of track specifically for these and not use the turntable at all for them?Or yet,were these engines restricted to certain maintenance points,having to be towed in case of major failure?
My understanding is that economics dictated and rebuilding installations probably wasn’t a favorite solution to many railroad companies.I even suspect that some stayed away from these engines for that reason alone.Just curious…
When locos started getting longer than the turntables they simply made a straight through track and added what most called a garden track. Then they would turn the loco on a wye or balloon track instead of the table. Crestlines table wasnt long enough for the S1 but one stall was added on to so the loco would be serviced inside and turned on the wye behind the house. Later the roads built longer houses and either longer tables or lined the aproach tracks to go over the table into a stall.
The UP had five 135’ turntables for the Big Boy engines in the territory they normally ran in. They could use ‘wye’ tracks for other specific needs. I suspect they had stalls long enough to handle the 25 Big Boy engines.
Extra long turntables are not that rare. The NP had a 136’ turntable at the Livingston Shop area, and the CB&Q had a 137’ turntable at at least one location(not sure if it was Clyde or West Burlington shops). This made it very handy to move dead engines that were in for repair/shopping to different tracks.
Maintenance of the type you are talking about was done then as it is now, by issuing a mechanic a rain coat and a carry around tool bag. If a piece of equipment is too new and too large to fit into a building for maintenance, then the maintenance was done in the fresh air. Later, if time, money and need dictate, a solution would be found.
A Big Boy (like any modern high end item) is a huge financial investment for a railroad, poo on the mechanic that whines about a roof over his head, the road needs to recover it’s investment first, comfort of the worker is a distant second.
A garden track is a quick and cheap fix, enlarging an existing engine shed (if possible) is next, followed by building a new facility (being the most expensive). On your layout you can have any of the above; perhaps a garden track coupled with mismatched engine shed doors, one being larger than the others.
More than a few roundhouses had extensions that lengthened a stall or several to accept new, longer locomotives - frequently added after a smokebox punched through the back wall to indicate the need.
A few locations (notably on the UP) used special skates on the rails of short turntables to jack up the rear of a 4-10 pedestal-frame tender, providing clearance under two axles so a Challenger could be turned. Presumably, that was done before the water tank was filled.
The NYC took the opposite tack. The huge rear overhang at the rear of their Niagaras’ tenders was designed to allow that long-barreled 4-8-4 to fit on a 100 foot turntable.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with short steam locos)
The entire history of steam involved engines getting longer and heavier. The Chicago & North Western Historical Society has published two excellent books on steam locomotive facilities, and an interesting point is made that when 4-6-0s replaced 4-4-0s, they had a problem with turntables – they were long enough in many cases, but the balance point was all wrong. That is, the balance point between steam locomotive and tender is likely somewhere under the firebox of the engine, not where the engine meets the tender. And that point changed enough between 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s that tables that were long enough for the engine still had to be replaced with longer turntables because the balance point involved part of the tender being beyond the edge of the turntable.
The reason the balance point is so important is that in the day of armstrong turntables, the engine had to be more or less perfectly balanced so that a man or two men could shove the turntable by hand. If the balance was wrong, the bearings would wear wrong, and then after a while it would not matter about balance if the bearing was bad enough.
The turntables that turned the Big Boys and other modern power did not have center balanced bearings so this ceased to be quite as bit an issue but even then, the table would turn easier if there was some balance.
As the need for large ten-coupled locomotives (2-10-2s and 2-10-4s) emerged on the Canadian Pacific, management decided it would be more economical to order large engines with small tenders that would fit existing facilities and fill them up more often rather than building larger tables, garden track, roundhouse extensions, etc. As such, the biggest of the big on CPR only had a 12,000 gallon tender.
Extending or building new larger turntables wasn’t uncommon on the prototype. If possible they would extend at least some roundhouse stalls to fit the bigger engines, but I know some of the Appalachian coal haulers that didn’t have room for bigger roundhouses built separate “Mallet Houses”, basically stand-alone rectangular engine houses for their biggest engines.
Southern Pacific had two separate roundhouses in Roseville, CA, at their largest yard. One was for non-articulateds up to 4-10-2’s, and the other was built especially for the AC Cab-forward 4-8-8-2’s. It was called the “Malley” roundhouse. Oddly enough, on the Donner Pass Route over the Sierra Nevadas, where the AC’s were originally designed, the only other ‘Malley’ turntables were at Norden, near Donner Pass, to turn helpers, and at Sparks, Nevada, outside of Reno where the AC’s were generally replaced with non-articulateds for the journey west to Ogden. Any other turns on the route were done by ‘balloon’ tracks–near Emigrant Gap and in Truckee, at the eastern foot of Donner Pass. As the Cab-forwards began to be used system-wide on the SP, both turntables and portions of roundhouses were extended to fit the big locos.
Tom nice pix. I don’t remember a turntable at Sparks, however there was a wye next to the enginehouse. The tail track was barely long enough to hold a 4-8-8-2 and with the Nugget Casino directly across the street, I’ve wondered how many times patrons had change the shorts or the SP had to repair the walls. Another wye on the Cascade line at Summit, Oregon had a wye with the tail track ending in a single ended tunnel. I guess as locomotives got longer they drilled deeper into the mountain.
Come to think about it, you’re RIGHT about Sparks (ah, my fading memory, LOL). Which kind of makes me wonder why they just used a wye instead of a turntable, especially since Sparks was pretty much the eastern terminus of ‘Malley’ territory. Wow, during the War, they must have had AC’s lined up for MILES waiting their turn to take on a westbound, LOL!
I remember that wye at Summit on the Cascade Line–I’ve got a photo of an AC-6 helper booming out of that dead-end tunnel and it looks like a forest fire. Always liked SP–if they couldn’t find a place, they’d FIT one!
Tom, your memory has also faded regarding the operation of cab-forward and cab-backward articulated on the Modoc Line. Trains originated and terminated in Sparks on the Overland Route, although almost all the traffic began and ended at Fernley for traffic from and to Ogden and beyond. Trains often ran light between Fernley and Sparks.
The really big stuff went to the seperate mallet house. There was a wye nearby to turn it around within a reasonable range.
The Big Boy did not run east because it’s all up hill, down hill, tumble over and down sideways. The biggest we got were the smaller Yellowstone class 2-8-8-4’s small being a subjective term. Brunswick probably had a turntable but not sure. There were wyes down in Baltimore way.
The Western Maryland had Challengers and I believe those were wyed as well. Again several places would have a turn table big enough to handle them.
One other thing about steamers. As big as they are, they are very delicate and precise machines. One bolt off this much has the potential to throw the whole thing to peices.
Mark & Tom, we’re talking my country. I did some railfaning on the Espee Modoc and WP (it’s still silver and orange to me) Reno Branch before the mergers. Both were big time trains on shortline right-of-way. Most of the Reno Branch and the Modoc were from the narrow gauge N-C-O all three are interesting stories. Those 2-8-8-4’s were actually bigger than the cab forwards and when moved from New Mexico to the Modoc the SP had to move them over the Shasta line because they were to big for Donner. There is a great book THE MODOC SOUTHERN PACIFIC’S BACK DOOR TO OREGON.
And it is Sparks, taken to the north as I can recognize the shape of the hills in back. The building to the right is a car barn, I was inside it a while back when my wife and I bought our spa. Her friend runs his spa and moving company out of it right now. The roundhouse would be where Pyramid highway crosses I 80 and the present Nugget parking lot.
Also, the two ballon tracks on the hill were probably installed for the reason Signor says, to allow turning of the rotaries without requiring backing, as they are out of the heavy snofall area.
