Anyone know what I can use to replace the existing motor with a smoother running motor?
the current motor runs fine on DC but not as nice as the newer ones.
I -assume- that you mean a five pole [or better] can motor rather than an old style three pole open frame motor ??
Gary
If you can find a 12 volt Canon EN22 they fit and work the best for me. You have to be careful buying them off eBay, there are a lot of 24 volt EN22s that are listed as Hobby Motors, some not listed that way.
I have had to send back a bunch of the 24 volt motors not listed as Hobby Motor.
Make sure you use NWSL Universals.
The link below is a Rivarossi Y6B with a Canon EN22 install.
https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-21-2011-my-y6b-conversion-to.html
I haven’t seen a 2-6-6-2 but the Y6B doesn’t have much room for a large can motor, a lot of over hang from the cab. It doesn’t look to bad painted flat black.
EDIT:
An easy check is a 12 volt motor measures 19 to 20Ω and the 24 volt motor measures over 50Ω across the motor windings.
I’ll say you do! New motors and new geers.
Them GG1s were smooth runners when new, but not so much now. Besides they will not fit in subwqay tunnels of LION.
I am not familiar with that Rivarossi model. However, I suggest you consider the new square can motors that “hit” the market about 2 years ago. I found out about them recently in “RepowerAndRegear groups io” (do a search and take a look there as a lot of the members are very experienced in re-motor and there are lots of locos discussed along with photos and such) when I was searching for motors to put in my Rivarossi and Mantua steamers. I could not find the EN22 Mel has used - he does great work. These square motors are 6 pole, 4 magnet motors with great torque. They cost less than $3 each so far from China via the auction site. There are three to look at:
Minebea SS10GORTME: 10mm X 10mm 11700RPM
Minebea SE15HOSLTP: 15mm X 15mm 6500RPM
Mabuchi SF-266SA: 18mm X 18mm 7200RPM
The 10 and 15 mm square are small but don’t let that fool you. I have installed 18mm square motors in two Mantua Pacifics with the power drive gear box. They are smooth running, powerful motors. I obtained both the 15mm and 18mm which are now slated for my other Mantuas and Rivarossis. I plan to switch out a Canon motor I already put in a Rivarossi with one of these squares.
I recommend you look close at Mel’s web site as he has done neat stuff with his Rivarossi articulated locos using the EN22. I believe the square motors will be an option to that motor.
I can’t find the torque specs on the Mabuchi SF-266SA however it has a high stall current of 1.17 amps at 12 volts (7200 RPM) and that should mean good torque. I’m not expecting much for the price and the RPM is too high.
I ordered a couple of them to play around with. Be awhile, the eBay listing says October 9 to 21 delivery.
Mel
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
When I first ran into the Canon EN22 I only ordered a couple because of the price, $1.19 from BG Micro in Dallas. After trying one I ordered 20, then 10 more. Should have bought all they had.
Mel
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Mel,
I remember reading about that 1.17 amp stall in “RepowerAndRegear” when it first came up with the 18mm square motor. There was discussion about the merits of its measure. One guy said he could not stop the output shaft with his fingers where on other motors he could. That evolved to discussions of anyone ever having a motor stall. The DC and DCC users of steam locos seem to agree the only common stall occurance they recalled was a valve gear or connecting rod coming loose and locking the drivers which stalled the motor. Agreement was then in that case a decoder could be damaged. Seems like there could be some kind of ‘simple and tiny circuit breaker’ between the power source (rail or battery) and decoder (DCC or DWTC) that could shut down current to the decoder like the old time clear glass auto accessory tubular fuse but at a very low current. All that is beyond my brain power.
I’m not worried about the stall or locked rotor current of these motors, I was using the current draw to guesstamate the motor torque.
The Canon EN22 draws 1.45 amps at 12 volts at locked rotor and it is rated at 16.1 mN or 2279 ounce inches at 5400 RPM.
I’ve been modeling HO since 1951 and in all that time I have only had one motor stall locked rotor. That happened when a rod screw came out of one of my steam locomotives and locked up the wheels about 20 years ago.
EDIT:
That made me a believer in Blue Threadlock.
From the info I’ve found since the post on this topic the motors look promising. As mentioned I can not stop the 2mm shaft on a Canon EN22 motor with my fingers at 10 volts and up.<
I didn’t notice until just now that the windings of the square motors aren’t skewed, that will make a big difference at low RPM power.
Maybe the additional pole will help the low speed power.
Mel
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
A friend, on my recommendation, bought the brass loco shown below (not its original tender shown)…
…which had a large can motor…
The plan was to make it into a model of a CNR prototype, and turned out, I think, rather well…
During the build, I needed to balance the weight of that motor, so cast a new lead weight to fit into the boiler. The loco then tipped the scales at about 2lbs.
While it’s an excellent puller, and in a test with a 100oz. loaded coal train, it moved the train up a 45’-long 2.8% grade, with numerous curves, without difficulty.
However, on a subsequent test with two or three more loaded cars, the loco actually stalled, too heavy and too much trailing weight to even slip its drivers (the latter a good safety device to prevent burned-out motors).
That’s the only time I’ve seen a loco actually stall. Fortunately, my friend does not run trains of that weight.
Wayne
Thanks for all the posts! I’ve had a terrible time trying to get onto this website. Gave up yesterday.
Yes I want a new motor don’t want to replace with the same old.
Your posts have provided me with a lot of information here and I need to look into the ideas and information provided.
I went to the NWSL website and found a document on how to replace the motor. Can’t find a video anywhere.
And those of you that questioned the 2-6-6-2 were correct! I moved to a new house last year building a new layout and for the last 20 years at the old house layout the locomotive was in a box. I Opened that box yesterday and it’s a 2-8-8-2.
If anyone knows where I can find a video I’d love to see it. I think the NWSL site has more info on gears etc.
Gary
The Rivarossi Y6B, 2-8-8-2 is a very good running locomotive. I have three with Canon EN22 motors. The Canon motor hangs out the back of the cab ¼” and from the measurements of the square motor talked about it is slightly longer.
Any Rare Earth Magnet can motor that will fit will work in the Y6B. Close couple the motor to the Rivarossi gear box. If the motor doesn’t clear the cab rear wall section you will need to trim it to fit.
The Faulhaber 2224RS will fit but with the passing of Eldon Shirey (RIP Motorman) they’re hard to find at a good price.
The Rivarossi gear box shafts are 2mm as is the Canon EN22. The square motors above also have a 2mm shaft.
Here is a link to my Blog Y6B remotor post.
https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-21-2011-my-y6b-conversion-to.html
This motor could be replacement for Faulhaber 2224RS:
If datasheet is correct, it is a very strong motor! Shaft is 1,5 mm, but that is easy to correct. The advantage is its dimensions, it is just 24,5 mm long.
Yes, Motorman was great source, not only on motors, but also on knowledge. I am happy to had opportunity to communicate with him for a while and learn some things. I am grateful him for that.
In any case, I would rather go for decent iron core motor like Canon mentioned above or e.g. Kato motor, or good coreless motor than buy 3 dollar motor…for that smal amount of money, you cannot expect quality (for a long term). OK, if you drive a locomotive once a month for 30 mins, it can be good. But if locomotive will be used often, on long sesions, pull long trains…it is better to invest little more in a hearth of each locomotive, and that is motor.
I must admit that I did not test motor I gave link above. But it is intended for serious equipment, which is used for a long period of time, so I expect, it should be ok.
Hrvoje
Gary, FYI - the Mabuchi SF-266SA comes with a 2mm diameter / 18.5mm long output shaft. I shortened my shafts to 10mm to fit locos using a hack saw and vise. The case is 30.6mm long including a plastic end cap into which electrical taps are inserted. I popped off the end cap and did not use the taps. I soldered lead wires direct to the electrical tabs the are revealed after popping off the cap. This made the case just 25 mm long. The steps I did are exactly what most re-motor folks have done in the “RepowerAndRegear” group - I just did what I read from their experiences. At the price I paid they were an easy gamble.
Mel, I do not have an EN22 but I wonder how the SF-266SA mods resulting in a 10mm shaft length + 25mm case length compare.
I ordered two of the SF-266SA motors, be awhile, slow boat from you know where.
The steel shafts cut easy using a Dremel cutoff wheel.
Mel
Hmm, are those really genuine Caon EN-22’s, to stall at over an amp? I’d think at over na amp they’d melt - the Stewart Baldwin switchers I have all have EN-22 motors in them, and I don’t think I’ve ever been able to get one above 1/2 amp. Normal free running, they draw less than 50mA - typically 25mA with nothing coupled on, on level track! The motors themselves have stickers on indicating their Canon origin.
–Randy
Randy
The motors I have are CANON EN22-R11N1B 12VDC - 5400 RPM. They draw 400 to 500ma pulling a good load up my 3½% grades. A pair of E7s equally equipped draw 800 to about 900 ma operating on DC pulling a loaded train up my grades.
I haven’t checked my steam locomotives in a long time so I can’t remember what they draw, several of my cab Forwards have dual EN22 motors with 10 ounces of added weight. My E7s are heavy, Athearn SD40-2 frames with Bowser E7 cast pot metal bodies (over 2 pounds each). The Canon motors don’t get hot under normal running conditions. I also have a pair of E7s with Mashima motors, I think they are 540s and they are very close to being a dup of the EN22. Same current at the same voltage at the same RPM.
I have two new Canon EN22-R11N1B motors in stock and I just used a pair of vise grip pliers to keep the rotor from turning and at 12.0 volts both draw the same exact current 1.02 amps.
They both draw 43ma no load at 12 volts.
Randy
I don’t think I would worry about locked rotor on a CANON EN22-R11N1B motor dinging a decoder, using the vice grips on the motors a few minutes ago reminded me of their tremendous power/torque. I really think that the EN22 would destroy the locomotive drive train before it dinged the decoder.
Mel
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.