I’m currently running a 22 car freight pulled by a postwar Hudson steamer, or alternatively by a couple of MPC Geeps, on my 031 tubular classic Lionel layout. I’m contemplating expanding to a second level.
What is the max % grade such a train could manage? Or alternatively what is the likely max cars I could pull up the grade of a 110 trestle set (4.5% grade?)with the same engines? --Or how much grade can be offset with an additional engine? (sidebar–how do you lash up two postwar lionel steamers?)
Bottom line is I was contemplating using the 110 set, which I have, but am getting concerned about it’s seemingly steep grade, when considering long trains- my current fixation.
Electrically, there is no problem just running postwar locomotives with universal motors together, except for getting and keeping the e-units in synchronism. Of course, one way around this is to shut the e-units off. Another, more drastic method is to wire the two motors in parallel. You get one e-unit into neutral and shut it off, then run both motors from the other e-unit. An in-between solution is to run a single-wire bus between locomotives to connect their pickups together, which greatly reduces the opportunities for the e-units to step accidentally.
If you’re wondering how to couple the locomotives together, there were two companion articles, titled “Doublehead those steamers!”, on page 86 of the January, 1999, CTT on how to add front couplers in ways that did not permanently alter the locomotives.
In the 70’s and 80’s, I use to run that era’s Geeps “lashed” together. I used one E unit and theaters between engines. I ran three together. I installed mini switches to make the wires to each E unit disconnet except for the middle engine. When unteathered, they could run on their own E units. When teathered, switches thrown, they ran on one E unit. I also removed the plastic fuel tanks and added weights and also weights inside. Could pull a long train of cars up a steep grade.
As I tried to indicate, you don’t need switches to disconnect the unused e-units. If you get the unused e-unit into the neutral position and shut off its coil, the three points that you need to connect to on the motor are isolated anyway. All you need to do is to add the tether.
Note that adding a fourth wire for the pickups is still a good option. With the motors paralleled, a pickup connection isn’t needed to keep them synchronized; but it greatly reduces your chances of getting stuck on dirty track or turnouts. You could add a fifth wire for the locomotive frames; but I think that’s gilding the lily.
[Note to all - never hit CTL-Tab while writing a post. Now, to start over…]
Nifty ideas, thanks. I see I’m trodding a well worn path.
I may post on this again when I’m ready to try it out, for help with figuring out the wiring and wire routing. I guess some type of mini- plug connectors would also be used.
[As a historical aside, I recall a cousin of my dad’s split the motors between the A units on a Lionel F3. However when we were visiting, he was having synchronization problems. I also recall he was running a GG1 on cantenary. I thought he was pretty cool, although that usage of the word hadn’t come into being yet.]
Anyone care to comment on the other part of the equation, namely the %grade issue?
I’m thinking: Even two or three Geeps, or a couple of steamers may not be able to pull 15-20 cars up the 4 1/2% or so grade that I calc’d for Lionel’s 110 trestle set. Has anyone tried supporting the track in some way so that the piers could be spaced further apart, say at 1 1/2 tracks? Or will I have to build my own incline? Or just run shorter trains?
runtime - The grade question would be easier to answer if we knew how big a layout you were going to build. Also, are you going to be purchasing any locos with some sort of speed control mechanism (like an MTH with 2.0)? How many trains do you want to run at one time? How much over/under action do you desire?
If you want to run long trains with the equipment you currently have, you have to incorporate long ascending and descending tangents of track (and that’s just for a modest 4" climb).
No modern controls are in my near term future, strictly conventional. I just want to get up over the curent ground level layout, so ~4.5 inches I guess. I fugure I need the equivalent of 10 sections of standard lionel track to achieve a 4.5% grade, which matches Lionel’s 110 Trestle set. For a shallower grade, obviously more distance. If I could set the trestles at 1 1/2 std Lionel straignt sections, I guess I would need the equivalent of 15 such sections distance. Its’ an around the room layout, roughly 10 x 15. The question in my mind is, how could I space the trestles that way? Has anyone used some sort of supports under the track with the Lionel trestles so that track section spacing is not a determining factor? tbere will definitely be some curves as well. As I said in my earlier, maybe I should forget the idea of pulling long trains to the second level and just go with the 4 1/2% grade dictated by the 110 Trestle set.
I have a 2035 postwar steamer (with magnatraction) and I can reliably pull only 7 postwar cars up the standard 110 trestles on my 027 layout. If you are pulling any of the heavier operating cars, then I can pull even less. Clean, well lubricated wheels on postwar cars are important.
I have used 2 postwar magnatraction diesels (205’s) in tandem and can pull about 12 cars up the grade before the engines begin to slip.
Another factor to consider is that the train will speed up at an alarming rate as it comes down and you will be constantly adjusting the transformer as it goes up and then down so you have to be at the throttle all the time. There are ways to solve this problem using resistors or bridge rectifiers (that’s another topic we could discuss). Unless you solve this problem, I guarantee that you won’t be happy!
Under my elevated track I have cut 1/4" hardboard that is about as wide as the ties. I did this for appearance (so that the track doesn’t look like it’s suspended in mid air) but it looks strong enough if you placed the trestles at every 1 1/2 track sections. This should get you about 3 degrees (instead of the 4 1/2 degrees if you placed trestles at every track section). At the curves I layed large sheets of paper on the curved and traced the route of the track and then transfered it to the hardboard and cut it out with a saber saw. I attached each piece of hardboard to the next piece by adding a 2" square of 1/8" plywood at the end of each piece on the bottom. You must screw at least every other trestle to the hardboard and screw each trestle to the layout. If you don’t, as a heavy steam engine travels between trestles, it will raise the trestles a little further up the track. The track doesn’t need to be screwed to the hardboard very often, only every 3 sections or so. If you think that 1/4" hardboard is to thin, you could use 3/8" or 1/2" plywood. Here is a photo of my elevated trestles with the hardboard running underneath. If you look underneath the left trestle you can see the 1/8" square of plywood that connects a straight piece of hardboard to the curved piece.
In areas of the layout where the strack and trestles are the most visible I made my own trestles and also attached 3/4" strips of 1/8" hardboard to the sides so that it looks like the track is supported on girders.
runtime - on a 10’ x 15’ layout, you certainly have plenty of room to gain elevation. You seem to really want to run this 110 trestle set, so my advice to you is to go ahead and lay the track out and see what your engines are capable of (do it on the floor just to get the visual). My CONNELLSVILLE SUBDIVISION started its life as a 12’ x10’ L-shaped layout. I had an outer loop that ran the edge of the layout, an inner loop that had a 90 degree crossing in the middle, and an upper level that crossed the inner loop twice and also had a 45 degree crossing. I didn’t have one shred of scenery on it, but I still enjoyed running 3 long trains at once. With this configuration, you could still use the 110 set for the upper level, by using the trestles to span a gorge.
Runtime, you seemed to be looking for confirmation of the grade. For the 110 set, it’s 4.32 percent with O31 track and 4.89 percent with O27.
David, grade in percent and degrees are not the same thing. Each degree of angle from the horizontal is (approximately) 1.75 percent, for not very steep grades.
You could cut the grade in half by using two collated sets, with a .22-inch shim under alternate pieces. Other intermediate grades are also easy to create using the appropriate shims. How much room do you have for this grade?
