OK am I the only one who saw “Manhattan Transfer” and thought of these people??
[;)]
Possibly you were. There was another Manhattan Transfer, too, back when. I believe it was on the BMT someplace and has since been renamed…but I don’t have the information here at hand.
Checked Brian Cudahy’s Rails Under the Hudson, his book about the early years of the PRR electrification. He has a great track diagram of MT and copy that shows that H&M was indeed integrated totally with the PRR in and out of MT. A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn’t stopping!. Cudahy also explained that the H&M connections to the PRR tracks were removed when MT was demolished; that the station had no access but by PRR or M&H trains; and that the “high line” fill covers most of it now.
I still believe the PRR and PC owned and operated the system until the mid 50’s. The H&M may never lost its identity but the operation and company was under the control of the PRR until it set it free because of bankruptcy of the Tubes. PRR did the same with the LIRR in 1949/50.
I’ve heard PATH trains referred to as a “Toonerville Trolley” because the cars are so small, far smaller than standard railroad cars.
I believe I was always aware that rapid transit cars were only shorter not smaller and rapid transit cars are proportional to railroad standards in terms of size. I don’t think the PATH cars are smaller there just shorter. Shorter does not mean smaller in height. Rapid transit cars are heavy for their own size because of the motors.
This is the map I once saw: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
activated
PATH equipment has a similar clearance diagram to CTA and it’s pretty tight. Consider that CTA equipment can be transported on flatcars and still be within railroad clearances. Although they are appreciably longer, I can remember seeing the NYCTA R-46 cars being transported on flatcars on the IHB in a regular transfer run.
Rapid transit equipment is generally shorter, narrower and not as tall as conventional railroad equipment.
The North Shore had similar gauntlets on both the Skokie Valley and Shore line (1940 relocation). At least one station on the NEC had or has gauntlets so freight cars will clear the high level platforms.
How long are the PATH cars? CTA has stuck with 47 feet and 8’ 8" wide for a pretty long time.
Length and width of rapid transit cars vary. H&M, Staten Island RR, IRT, and Chicago Transit cars have always bee short because of the almots 90 degree curves. Other, later, lines opened up the curvature and allow for longer cars. In some cases articulated cars were tried!
I understand that the H&M tunnels under the Hudson were built very early on and are narrower than most tunnels. Also, ventilation is by using the trains and tunnels as a piston and cylinder. Each train pushes the air in front of it and creates a vacuum that pulls air in in back of it. And also the curves are very tight. For these reasons cars are both shorter and narrower than subway cars.
The source of my information is conversations with my fellow commuters back in the days when I rode the Erie Bergen County Line in to Hoboken. It seems reasonable to me but I cannot vouch for the total accuracy of my information.
It is all well documented…Google or Bing Hudson and Manhattan Railroad for starters.
New York Times February 6 1908. The headline is Trolley Tunnel Open to New Jersey. This in is a footnote to the Wiki article on the PATH train. However, the newspaper has lost the story; at least that is what their message says when I click on the link. But the headline says it all.
Alloboard,
Your map is fascinating.
John
The H&M and the PRR main line interchange is amazing! Do you all know that the systematic interconnections and operations of that Manhattan transfer interlock is equivalent to the PATH train line directly connecting to Amtraks and NJTransit at Harrison yard! That will be a very complicated operation. I don’t even think that this type of operation will be practical or appropriate because it will be such a mess.
Henry is right about the 50%/50% split in ownership of the Hudson - Terminal - Newark service red Gibbs-designed cars, which was also true for the K-class air-conditioned post WWII replacements, long since relegated to work service for the few remaining. The line west of Journal Sq., including the “H&M” original Newark Park Street elevated station, was totally owned by PRR. It was a joint service, with crews allowed to work through by agreement. There was an extra fare, using tickets, for travel west of Journal Square to Harrison or Newark. Now, the whole line is owned by PATH.
IRT and PATH cars have similar dimension, PATH cars being a trifle shorter. PATh cars cannot operate on the IRT because of the curved side that allows more elbow room for a cross seat or a slightly wider aisle for longitudinal seats. IRT cars cannot operate on PATH because their longer length would give clearance problems on sharp curves. But the original Stillwell-designed “black” cars for the Hoboken and Jopurnal Sq. service (actually very dark green) were run in test operation on the IRT 2nd Avenue Elevated. The black cars were all owned by the H&M. Now the whole line is owned by PATH, including the tracks, but not the RofW, along the corridor, and the Harrison Station.
Going back to the question of track connections there is an industrial spur that crosses the PATH line near the shops east of where PATH leaves the Corridor. One lead connects to PATH, the other goes to what looks like a propane storage facilty. On the Google maps I was looking at, a trackmobile was visible.
I have heard that when the Port Authority took over the H&M trains they were given the H&M Manhattan terminal to develop the land. In exchange they were supposed to keep the fare at 25¢. That of course is long ago. And long forgotten.
Henry,
Do you know if this is still true? I do know that Newark Light Rail uses articulated cars but most of it runs over rails originally built for trolley cars fairly early on in the last century.
John
PATH is standard or “heavy” rail while the River Line, HBLR, and Newark Subway are light rail…two different things. But, yes former IRT lines, Staten Island RR, Chicago EL, and PATH are all short cars because of the early building dates of the infrastructures. but were incorporated as railroads and thus heavy rail. The light rail is what used to be trolley lines, or in a stretch, interurban as trolleys were more common to in street tracks. Newark City Subway was built out of Penn Sta. Newark on the underground towpath of and followed the course of the Morris Canal through Branchbrook park. The River Line is light rail but diesel instead of electric.