When I attended community college, there was the UP line. I would see unit coal trains, unit grain trains, and some manifest trains. On occasion there would be auto carriers mixed in with these. Why? I thought that pretty much all auto carriers were unloaded at certain hubs and the remaining cars were mixed with other trains that hauled other auto carriers to be distributed at other facilities.
Simple. A train’s consist isn’t all going to the same ultimate destination. That’s why there are yards to break up and reassemble trains.
Mark
In many corridors, autoracks will often be seen in dedicated, solid trains. In a few corridors, there’s enough auto business that the railroad is willing to engage in the business and provide equipment and service committment, but not enough business to justify solid dedicated trains solely for the auto business. In particular, empties will more often move in manifest trains than loads.
You didn’t mention which line you were observing, but just guessing from your ID you were next to either UP’s former MKT/TP from Kansas City to Fort Worth via Denison, UP’s OK&T from Salina to Olahoma City, or UP’s KP from Kansas City to Denver. As luck would have it all three lines frequently have auto business mixed into manifest. The former MKT line picks up a lot of business to and from Mexico; the OK&T from the GM plant in Oklahoma City, and the KP the traffic for UP’s Denver ramp at Hazeltine out of the Kansas City mixing center.
RWM
There could be many reasons for your train being the way you saw it. One of the hottest trains on the SP central valley line was the BRLA between LA and . The train was mostly TOFC, COFC and a few assorted cars; however it always had six auto cars in the middle at . I was told the auto cars were picked up at an auto plant north of LA and blocked in the correct spot in the train.
But things could also change. One time the train came into with the weight distribution out of limits to negotiate the notorious Cantara Loop, a trouble spot at the head of the . The yard crew re-configured the train. When the train arrived at it was re-blocked and finished the trip to .
Things aren’t always as they should be, Rob
Some manifest trains haul loaded autocarriers from the (soon to close) NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA (Bay Area) to destinations that do not have auto trains traveling from the Bay Area to those destinations. I have also seen loaded autocarriers come up from Mexico to auto terminals in Benicia, CA and Tacoma, WA (if I remember correctly).
What you saw is fairly common.
Train consists is made up in destination blocks…You see those autoracks could have been reloaded at a mixing pool and then forward to their final destination for forwarding to automobile dealers by truck.
Let’s say NS has 6 loaded Autoracks for Columbus,Ohio…Instead of running a 6 car auto train these cars would be place at the head of a Eastbound manifest to be setout at Watkins Yard in Columbus.
Of course these 6 loaded autoracks could be destine for a city on the CSX so these cars would be interchanged.
A manifest train can have everthing in it up to the kitchen sink. Everyone posted great examples and here is one i have seen.Sometimes youll get a train with a B/O car in it. The carmen fix the car and off it goes on any junk train going that direction.We had 4 loaded coal cars in our local one day.Had to get to Chicago to be sent further east after a problem had been discovered on those cars.
Most of the time with auto racks on our line right now, its that only a few are going that way and well our top speed is 40 and we dont have a "hot shot"so it just gets lumped in with whatever train.
Even though we have a couple of solid auto rack trains you still see auto racks in manifest trains. There are even a couple of stack trains that have a block of auto racks on the head end.
Jeff
About 10% of the auto racks are in manifest trains.
Sometimes it could just be a matter of “filling out tonnage”. If a manifest going to say Los Angeles from the midwest had sufficient engines up front to haul say 60 cars but only had 50 in the train, the railroad might take 10 cars from a cut of auto racks going west and add them to the manifest train. This way the RR makes the best use of the available power.
Maybe in years gone by, but not as much in today’s world. Dumping a cut of auto racks into a hump yard when they were supposed to bypass is usually frowned on. Dumping a cut of high priority autos in a yard 30 or 40 miles from the ramp where they go so it takes a special move to cross town them or they spend a day or two being handled yard to yard in transfers is usually frowned on. Someplace like “Los Angeles” that covers a hundred or more square miles on a major railroad can have more than a dozen different distinct destinations in it Just dumping tonnage on a train going in that general direction isn’t a very popular decision on a modern railroad. In many cases rolling the 10 cars to the next day’s train they are scheduled train will actually get them to the customer quicker than bootlegging them on a general manifest train.
Dave,Railroads still use fill tonnage but,mostly general freight but,will include auto racks,stacks and pigs,empty hopper cars…
You see if there is only (say) 10 auto racks they would indeed tack those on a general freight and annull the regular auto rack train.Now they have a free crew to use on another train.
Make no mistake railroads still do old fashion things-just ask any shipper/reciever whose car has been sitting on a interchange track for 2 days while freight trains roll by.
Then we have that age old battle of terminal dwell time that plays a roll in fill tonnage.
It would be foolish to hold a car in the yard
Depends on the railroad and how they move their auto and premium business. If they operate a large amount of auto and intermodal business in dedicated lanes then it will be less likely. I am reffering to a situation where the autos normally operate in a dedicated train. If the normal move its to put the auto racks on a manifest train then it isn’t fill, its just more tonnage. If the normal move is to move the tonnage on a dedicated auto train then it is less likely to “fill” a manifest train. If the railroad is running dedicated trains chances are the auto racks are at the loading facility and the mainfest is at the switching yard, so it will require a special move to get the two cuts together.
Which is why railroads do most of their interchange on run throughs or through a major yard.
Its foolish for the origin yard, maybe not so foolish for the destination yard. Saving 30 hours on one end and then spending 48 hours on the other isn’t really a savings from the customer’s perspective.
Really it boils down to the individual railroad and how they want to operate. Some railroads just want to move everything now, regardless of which train it ought to be on, some railroads wan
Keep in mind we’re talking about a fact, not a hypothesis…the poster didn’t ask “would a railroad ever stick a few autoracks into a manifest freight”, rather he was stating that he had seen what were otherwise complete trains of coal, grain etc. that contained a few autoracks, and was wondering what might have caused U.P. to do that.
Dave wrote:
Its foolish for the origin yard, maybe not so foolish for the destination yard. Saving 30 hours on one end and then spending 48 hours on the other isn’t really a savings from the customer’s perspective.
This has been rail/customer issue for years…“Seamless operation”(fancy RR catch word) was the words use during the mega merger era.Of course,after the mega mergers it can still take 37.4 hours for a freight car to get through Toledo.
Really it boils down to the individual railroad and how they want to operate. Some railroads just want to move everything now, regardless of which train it ought to be on, some railroads want to move things on the right train, even if it means a delay getting it on that train. It depends on how the schedules are set up, depends on how the service is costed, depends on how far apart the final destinations are (manifest vs premium). Some railroads have more network control, some delegate more control to the local yards. Also depends a lot on the traffic levels. When traffic levels are low, the railroad may combine a manifest and auto train. Of course then the auto business isn’t a “fill” its the plan.
Again with the current economic slump and railroads having crews laid off you are seeing more auto racks in manifest trains…As the economy improves these cars may go back to filling auto rack trains
Of all the years I been railfaning I can’t remember a slower year…My best days track side was spent in Fostoria…
Here’s something you may find of interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaWsgrK_B6M&NR=1
Note the autoracks be
Ah, some intelligent words from the always insightful Brakie. I’ve seen a couple of videos from Pentrex featuring Sante Fe. Their manifest’s over Cajon pass and…and, um, their line across N. Mexico, had in them TOFC and COFC spline cars, TOFC 89 foot flats, articulated well cars, individual well cars, double and tripple autoracks in individual and articulated variety, and 89 foot autoports box cars. The Cajon pass also feauted UP (not so much though) and SP, who also had 50’ and 60’ box cars and hi-cube box cars. The Cajon video was set in '93 give or take a year.
[quote user=“BRAKIE”]
Dave wrote:
Its foolish for the origin yard, maybe not so foolish for the destination yard. Saving 30 hours on one end and then spending 48 hours on the other isn’t really a savings from the customer’s perspective.
This has been rail/customer issue for years…“Seamless operation”(fancy RR catch word) was the words use during the mega merger era.Of course,after the mega mergers it can still take 37.4 hours for a freight car to get through Toledo.
Really it boils down to the individual railroad and how they want to operate. Some railroads just want to move everything now, regardless of which train it ought to be on, some railroads want to move things on the right train, even if it means a delay getting it on that train. It depends on how the schedules are set up, depends on how the service is costed, depends on how far apart the final destinations are (manifest vs premium). Some railroads have more network control, some delegate more control to the local yards. Also depends a lot on the traffic levels. When traffic levels are low, the railroad may combine a manifest and auto train. Of course then the auto business isn’t a “fill” its the plan.
Again with the current economic slump and railroads having crews laid off you are seeing more auto racks in manifest trains…As the economy improves these cars may go back to filling auto rack trains
Of all the years I been railfaning I can’t remember a slower year…My best days track side was spent in Fostoria…
Here’s something you may find of interest.
RWM,First and foremost I am not going to be drawn into a unless debate.You have stated you are employed by a railroad and you should already know what a manifest is.You should know there are thousands of auto racks being stored.
I spent close to 200 hours track side from April to October and I notice more auto racks in manifest trains then I ever did in the past just like the smaller number of center beams .I know NS and CSX has crews furlough and the number of trains is down compared to last year.
In all of my years railfaning and during my 9 1/2 years as a brakeman I never seen any year quite like this one…I’ve seen more “garbage” trains(a train hauling every type of freight car to include auto racks/pig/stacks) this year then in years past.I noted more empty and single loaded well cars this year as well…
They can’t do that! [soapbox] It’s not prototypical! [:-,]
My conjecture is that the autoracks were empty, making it difficult to damage the contents (air) with a hard coupling.
Mark