Papa D started a very interesting discussion on another thread, one that I would like to explore further. In order to continue the discussion without “derailing” the other thread, I thought I would start this topic so we can talk about Marx windup motors in detail! Thank you Papa D!
First, the post that lead to this discussion:
[quote user=“Papa_D”]
The last of the CV production was in ’48, however Mercury production lasted to ’52. They used the same windup motor. “400” production started in in ’52 and lasted until ’76, although not continuous during this time span. Given the overlap between the Mercury and “400” windup production, in all likelihood the motors would have the same form and fit given Marx’s manufacturing approach that focused on saving half-pennies per unit. The windup key location and front attachment screw location looks to be the same based on the attached photo of a “400” windup.
From the underside, the motors look to have the same form and fit. I grabbed the attached photo off of eBay.
Great post with a lot of information. Will take me a bit to digest. Suspect you’ve given me a quest to find a windup motor type for each of your 4 catagories.
Dealing with the history of Marx mechanical steam engines is quite confusion. After looking through my reference material (Greenberg’s Guide to Marx Trains, Vol 1; Greenberg’s Marx Trains Pocket Price Guide, 9th edition; and Old Windup Trains by James Pekarek) I’ve been able to identify 21 different engines not counting variations. No one reference contained all 21. The 533, and 490 referred to by JamesP are somewhat obscure as I only found reference to them in Old Windup Trains. The only way to sort all this out is to describe each one with variations in chronological order as Marx numbering system seems extremely jumbled. First up (in a later post) will be the 232 Commodore Vanderbilt produced from ’35 to ’48 with interruption for WWII.
Yes, the Marx numbering system doesn’t seem to have any rhyme or reason to it. Add to that the minimal amount of factory documentation, and it is hard to nail down the history on Marx trains in general, and their windup trains in particular.
When I wrote “Old Windup Trains”, it was intended as an introduction and overview of the hobby of collecting O gauge windups, so you are correct that it isn’t all-inclusive of the production of Marx - or any - manufacturer. Perhaps someday I’ll be able to write some more in-depth books about various Marx windups, along the same lines as my book on the mechanical CV’s. But, for now, here are the windup O gauge locomotives Marx produced… that I’m aware of… in approximate chronological order:
M10000
Commodore Vanderbilt
Bunny Express
M10005
Mercury
Canadian Pacific 3000
666 - Note that this is the windup version of the 999 electric with the open-spoke cowcatcher. It is not the same as the postwar electric 666 locomotive.
897 - Prewar Lithographed locomotive made in both electric and windup versions.
833/898 - Same body as 897, but not litho’d. I believe that the 833 designation is proper for the windup version, and the 898 number is actually proper for the electric version.
933/943/933M/994 - The BIG locomotive built to compete with Unique Arts. Again, all the same basic body. I believe that 933 is correct for a forward-only windup, 943 correct for a reversing windup, 933M is the Mickey Mouse litho’d windup, and I think 994 would be correct for the electric version.
198 Early/Late - The late version (circa 1960-65) is the most common. It is identifiable by the bump between the sand dome and steam dome by the brake lever that is needed to clear the gearing on a Riser Gear motor. The early version (circa late 40’s) does not have that bump.
LOL, I didn’t realize you were the author of Old Windup Trains. I also have your other two booklets, The Marx Mechanical Commodore Vanderbilt and Windup Train Repair. I already owned a mechanical CV and 401 before I bought your CV booklet which in turn lead me to buying the other two. All great reads and reference material. They kind of hooked me into looking into Marx mechanical engines and six-inch, four-wheel cars more seriously. So thanks (I think)!
Glad you enjoyed the books, good to hear they are doing what I intended… introduce more people to windup trains!
If you’ve had a chance to look through the above list of Marx O gauge windup trains, I’m curious if you see any omissions?
By the way, you mentioned that 490 mechanical was a bit obscure… and that is a good word for it. Although the electrical versions of the 490 seem to be plentiful, the windup versions were - as far as I have been able to tell - only produced for a year. I have examples in both riser gear and puffer (ratchet motor) variations. The bodies also seem to be brittle and prone to break around the mounting holes in the cylinders. The limited production and relative fragility of the bodies seems to make these very hard to find. They are nice looking locomotives, though…
JamesP: Not an easy task comparing your list with my list. I primarily used Greenberg’s Guide to Marx Trains, Vol 1 to compile my list. I then used the Greenberg’s Marx Pocket Price Guide and Old Windup Trains to cross check for conformation and omissions. The resulting table is shown below. Note that I’ve only included steam engines.
Here are the differences:
Your 933 is what GGtMT Vol 1 lists as a 994. You state the 994 is for the electric version.
Your 933M is what GGtMT Vol 1 lists as 734 Mickey Mouse Meteor.
You describe 198 as early/Late. By early do you mean 235 Canadian Pacific produced in ’36 and ’39. GGtMT Vol 1 lists the 198 as produced only in ’62.
GGtMT Vol 1 lists a 999 Windup produced in ’49 as very rare.
OWT lists a 530 on pg 19. I assume that this is the same as a 400 with a bottom cover add
“Your 933 is what GGtMT Vol 1 lists as a 994. You state the 994 is for the electric version.”
“Your 933M is what GGtMT Vol 1 lists as 734 Mickey Mouse Meteor.”
I would group all of those as one basic type of locomotive. I do have reason to believe that Marx used the 933/933M/943 numbers for the windups, and the other number designations were the electric versions, but I won’t state that as Gospel… [:)]
Still working on my Marx windup steam engine list. Waiting on a new reference I just purchased. In the meantime, based on the box, is this an early or late era 198 Marlines? Photos are off eBay, unfortunately no bottom photo so I can’t tell if it is a Late Ratchet of Rise Gear motor.
This is an excellent example to look at. I’ll start with the clue you mentioned first, the box. I’m afraid I’m not very knowledgeable on dates based on boxes, but this style is typically seen in the late 50’s through the 60’s, so that gives a good clue about the time frame.
The second clue would be the cars - the UP Caboose was made from 1952-'72, the tender from 1956-'72, and the gondola from 1958-'72.
Third, the body of the locomotive. If you look closely at boiler between the sand dome and steam dome (behind the brake lever) you will see a slighlty raised area. That was put there on the late models to clear a gear on the Riser Gear motor. Also, the keyhole isn’t on the right side of the locomotive, so we know it originally came with a Riser Gear motor. Both of those clues tell us that it is a late 198.
Fourth, it has the 17 spoke die-cast drivers, which weren’t introduced until the early '50’s. Some ratchet motors of the era did come with those drivers, but by that time the sideplates were black, not shiny metal. For some reason, Marx reverted back to the plated metal sideplates on the Riser Gear motor - I’ve never seen a factory Riser Gear motor with black sideplates - so that is a clue about the motor. The final clue about the motor itself is hard to see on the small picture, but visible on the original pic on EBay. If you look closely in front of the front drive wheel, just peeking under the siderod, you will see the end of a crossmember that holds the motor sideplates together. That crossmember is horizontal, so it is definitely a Riser Gear motor. A Ratchet Motor will have a vertical crossmember there instead.
So, all together, I would say the locomotive is a late style 198 with the correct mechanical motor in it. It’s in a typical set that was sold in the early 1960’s. Eventually, Marx would discontinue the 198 and use the un-nu
Thanks for thoughtful and insightful comments above. They’ve moved me up the Marx windup steam engine identification learning curve significantly, but I still have a long way to go.
Recently I was lucky enough to purchase an “early” era windup 198. As you can see it’s a bit different from the “late era” version previously shown; it’s a shiny vs. dull black plastic and it has a bell on front. (Did the “late” era 198 initially come with and without the front bell?) Also, the windup engine is a “late ratchet” with black side plates.
The 198 is the smallest Marx plastic windup steam engines. Below is a comparison of the 198 (front) with a 401. The size difference is primarily in the dimensions of the cabs.
The 400 series plastic shell steam engines debuted in ’52. Marx appears to have taken notice of the 198 rear platform attachment design weakness by using a slide in metal plate held in the front on the bottom by plastic molded-in side tabs and in the rear by a slot in the plastic shell.
I’ve updated my list of Marx windup steam engines and also arrange them by category based on previous thread posts and additional research. As something that all Marx enthusiasts know, Marx engine numbers and production dates can be very vexing since catalogs weren’t produced and, in many cases, engines didn’t carry numbers. So, it’s likely this table isn’t yet finished.
I’ve rearranged the table from chronological order to shell type groups as this seems to make more sense. Separating “Stamped Steel” and “Sheet Metal” shells into separate groups is somewhat arbitrary since the different is just the gauge of steel used. However, I think the CV and Mercury deserve a separate category. I’ve also tried to show engines that use the same basic shell. Since I don’t have unlimited budget for trains (nor display storage space) this listing will help guide me on what to collect, hopefully others find it helpful too.
…more information on the Marline 198 windup engine. Currently there is an Allstate Set 9512 for sale on eBay. It contains a 198 Marline Engine with a bell on the front and what I believe is a ratchet motor.
The other pieces are correct for this set. I’ve found another 9512 set for sale on-line that matches this set. This other set has a bell on front and a rise gear motor.
Both come in a corrugated yellow box which is circa 1960’s. It’s unusual for a Marx mechanical set to come packaged in a corrugated box. The only difference between the two sets is the B&O 241708 is the common gray interior walls for the set for sale on eBay while the other set has the less common black (dark gray) interior walls.
Trying to sort out Marx mechanical engines is certainly a challenge.
Papa D, I certainly enjoy your posts. I have two of the Allstate 9512 sets, both of which have 198 locomotives with ratchet motors in them. I don’t have very many examples of the 198, but all of mine have bells… I can’t recall ever having seen a 198 without a bell unless it was broken off, so I would be interested in seeing one that came from the factory without one.
By the way, congratulations on the aquisition of the early 198 - that loco has eluded me thus far! [:D]
I recently purchased the Greenberg’s Marx Train Catalogues (GMTC) book in my never ending quest to nail down Marx mechanical engine production. (It’s a tough choice between reference books and mechanical engines.)
Marx published a catalog of sorts for dealers with their train offerings from the early 50’s to ’75. In circa ‘54 they listed a set number 474-SM which contained a 400 mechanical engine with smoke. Other pieces of rolling stock included a tank car, gondola and caboose.
GMTC then skips to ’62 when it shows the 474-SM was again listed. It’s impossible to tell from the photo if the engine is a 400 or 490. Other pieces of rolling stock include a State of Maine boxcar, gondola and caboose. The mystery of which mechanical engine is in the ’62 474-SM set is cleared up by the four photos below from a recent eBay listing.
Clearly this set matches the ’62 description, so the Marx ’62 dealer catalog engine must have been a 400. Note also
I do have a couple of questions… can you post a scan of the '64 catalog 474-SM set? The 400 and 490 engines are very similar, but there are two differences that can be spotted with most pictures. First is the shade above the cab windows - the 400 shade goes down halfway over the window, but the 490 shade is much shorter. The second is the headlight. On a 400 the headlight is larger - in fact, it is actually a separate part that is inserted into the front of the boiler. One of the changes Marx made going to the 490 was to eliminate the separate headlight and make it part of the locomotive shell - Marx was the master at shaving production costs, and this must have been worth the trouble to do!
JamesP: Here are the best photos I could get of mechanical engines from the GMTC Marx ’62 dealer catalog.
473-SM Five Unit Mechanical Steam Smoking Freight Set, 3 to a shipper:
No. 453 Five Unit Mechanical Freight Set, 6 to a shipper:
No. 714 Mechanical Old Fashion Train Set, 6 to a shipper:
No. 526 Four Unit Mechanical Freight Set, 6 to a shipper:
In the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, two of Marx’s biggest train buyers were Sears and Montgomery Ward. In ’59, Sears advertised 3 and Montgomery Ward advertised 4 different mechanical train sets. By ’62 Sears advertised just two mechanical sets; a 198 Four Unit Freight and a Wm Crooks. The last mechanical 400 set (bell with side rods but no sparks) advertised by Sears was in ’58. Montgomery Ward didn’t advertise any mechanical train sets after ’57. Their offering in ’57 was a single mechanical train set with a 591 engine, plastic front, bell & sparks without handrails or side rods.
Shown below is my current updated list of Marx mechanical steam engines
I plan to go through this list in this and following posts to provide the basis upon which it’s been complied. First, a little bit of history on how Marx marketed their trains. They never produced consumer catalogs and only started to produce dealer catalogs in the early ‘50’s. They used no salesmen per se. Instead they provided a list of available items at the annual Toy Fair in NYC and booked orders after negotiating quantity, features and price. Other Marx toy train items could be added to create unique sets for a seller, making it difficult for consumers to compare prices from different stores. First-tier buyers such as Sears and Montgomery Ward got better deals that second-tier buyers such a W.T. Grant, Spiegel, J.C. Penny, etc. Then came a whole host of third-tier regional and local department stores. Marx depended upon stores to advertise Marx trains being sold. This overall strategy worked well, resulting in Marx becoming the world’s largest toy manufacturer in the 50’s. However, it’s created a nightmare for anyone trying to pin-down anything related to Marx train production including mechanical steam engines.
First off is the Commodore Vanderbilt manufactured from ’35 to ’48, except for the WW II years of ’43 – ’45. I’ve found advertisements for all these years except ’35 and ’41. As explained above, the Marx mechanical train advertisements I’ve come across are only a fraction of the adv
Here are the differences:
