About 5 years ago, I installed 1/4" Masonite boards (2’ x 4’) as backdrops to my layout.
I wanted to apply the Masonite boards to my concrete basement walls. Because the concrete was not perfectly flat, I first cut 2 inch wide strips (2" x 24") out of the Masonite board and glued those strips to the concrete at appropriate distance intervals with Liquid Nails Interior Projects Construction Adhesive. Then, once dry, I glued the 2’ x 4’ Masonite boards to the masonite furring strips, also using Liquid Nails Interior Projects Construction Adhesive. In the process, the Masonite boards protruded 1/4 inch from the walls since they were affixed to the 1/4 inch furring strips.
Over time, this has held up quite well and, to this day, all of the furring strips are still held firmly in place. However, on one wall, three of the Masonite boards have begun to separate from the furring strips.
Can anyone offer any advice on why this might have occurred, but only on some of the boards (all adjacent to one another), but on none of the furring strips?
Moisture. Or maybe residue from the manufacturing process - I assume this is the one side tempered type - one side rough and the other smooth. Since the ‘furring strips’ are glued on both sides, it has to be glued on the smooth side as well as the rough. I’d assume the smooth side is out for the backdrop panels. When I look at whole 4x8 sheets the sheen on the tempered side isn;t uniform, so I assume there are some residues from the tempering process that might leech out after a while. Did you rough the smooth side up with sandpaper at all?
The masonite strips had a lot of dust on them from sawing into strips, which prevented the Liquid Nails from adhering.
Moisture from water soaking through the blocks.
A bad tube of Liquid Nails. One tube may not have been as fresh as the others, or it was not put on as thickly on those particular strips as on the others.
Did you maintain pressure on the panels while the Liquid Nails set?
If you’re sure that all of the furring strips are still affixed to the walls, can you see if the Masonite panels are separating from the furring strips, or if the panels or furring strips are de-laminating? This sounds to me as if moisture has caused the layers beneath the glued surfaces on one or the other to come apart.
I didn’t know until I asked, but not all Masonite is “tempered”. Both tempered and untempered are equally flexible and tempering, while it is done only on the smooth side, has nothing to do with flexibility but rather the hardness of the surface. I doubt very much that such a surface treatment would have any bearing on the problem. For backdrops, tempering is a wasted feature that adds cost, although you may find this quality useful for fascia, where it’s subject to more contact. I used the plain, untempered variety for both backdrops (coved corners only - the main backdrop is drywall) and layout fascia.
Regarding comment #1, I cut the furring strips in the garage and there was an incredible amount of dust, no question about that, but I carefully vacuumed each strip with a Shop Vac.
Regarding comment #2, it is a poured concrete foundation, not cinder blocks. However, there was some moisture on that wall the preceding winter when melting snow came over the top of the foundation in a few spots. So,moisture is a possibility.
Regarding comment #3, I suppose a bad tube of Liquid Nails is a possibility, but how likely. Other panels on the same wall are securely intact.
What did you do? Come over and look at my basement to see how I installed the backdrops? [(-D]
You nailed it. The 2’ x 4’ Masonite boards that I purchased at Home Depot are labeled as “tempered hardboard” and have a smooth surface on one side and a rough surface on the other side. I glued the rough side of the furring strips to the concrete wall and then glued the rough side of the backdrop panels to the smooth side of the furring strips.
To answer doctor wayne’s question, no the Masonite boards have not delaminated.
As I indicated in reply to cacole’s post, the concrete walls are dry and are waterproofed with a coat of Drylok. Having said that, the winter before the separations occurred between the backdrop panels and the furring strips, melting snow seeped over the top of the foundation wall and down to the basement floor in a few spots.
So, moisture could have played a role. However, other panels on the same wall remain securely in place and unaffected.
Would sanding the smooth surfaces do the trick, in spite of moisture? And, let me note, if there was moisture on the wall at all, the panels show no sign of water damage and the bonding surfaces are 1/4 inch away from
Yes glue the furring strips to the masonry walls and yes glue and nail the Masonite to the furring strips. (one note I would not use Masonite where moisture such as you get in a basement and as the only wall board but use it over top of drywall.)
What you need to do is use extruded foam insulation or spray foam insulation on the masonry wall in between the studs.and then put a 6mil plastic vapor barrier over the insulated and studs to keep the moisture from coming into contact with the wallboard or in your case Masonite. Another thing is an old carpenters trick is to take a 2x4 and lay it on the flat when you glue it to the wall, it will give you more surface to glue and adhere to the masonry and it is the exact thickness of extruded foam so you get a nice tight fit. The enemy of any basement room is moisture so you need to take steps to prevent it form coming in contact with any pores material such as wood or wall-board including Masonite.
All of my Masonite backdrops are up flat against the wall on furring strips and my layout sits flush up against it. [banghead]
My only hope is that roughing up the surface of the furring strips willl do the trick. Unless, someone can tell me about a better adhesive that will hold the Masonite panels, moisture or not.
I would use the Liquid Nails construction adhesive not the stuff for home projects. Construction adhesive is solvent based (contact cement), the home projects stuff is latex based.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I was thinking about your post today when I was in my local home center picking up some lumber for a project I have going on out in my shop. I was standing next to the racks of hardboard aka Masonite and I figured hey why not ask someone who really is an authority So I proposed your question to the guy in the lumber department and he and a professional carpenter both gave me the same answer. Masonite is not meant to be applied directly to studs but rather to wallboard aka Sheetrock or even as a sub-floor material. Their reason made perfectly good sense after hearing it, as mentioned Masonite even the 1/4" stuff is very flexible so eventually it will “take a bow” or get wavy as they put it between the studs unless that is you have a stud every 6" or so. If your wall was straight enough it would still not have been a good idea to apply it directly to masonry. Both reiterated my thoughts about moisture in basements being a recipe for disaster. This I can attest to in my own basement. Even though my basement is perfectly dry and I have no water problem the rocket scientist I bought my house from glued Sheetrock on one wall directly to the cinder-block wall. When I first moved in one night I just took a break from cleaning and was drinking a beer and put my one hand on the wall and noticed that it was cool to the touch.
All of my Masonite backdrops are up flat against the wall on furring strips and my layout sits flush up against it.
My only hope is that roughing up the surface of the furring strips willl do the trick. Unless, someone can tell me about a better adhesive that will hold the Masonite panels, moisture or not.
Rich
Rich,
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I was thinking about your post today when I was in my local home center picking up some lumber for a project I have going on out in my shop. I was standing next to the racks of hardboard aka Masonite and I figured hey why not ask someone who really is an authority So I proposed your question to the guy in the lumber department and he and a professional carpenter both gave me the same answer. Masonite is not meant to be applied directly to studs but rather to wallboard aka Sheetrock or even as a sub-floor material. Their reason made perfectly good sense after hearing it, as mentioned Masonite even the 1/4" stuff is very flexible so eventually it will “take a bow” or get wavy as they put it between the studs unless that is you have a stud every 6" or so. If your wall was straight enough it would still not have been a good idea to apply it directly to masonry. Both reiterated my thoughts about moisture in basements being a recipe for disaster. This I can attest to in my own basement. Even though my basement is perfectly dry and I have no water problem the rocket scientist I bought my house from glued Sheetrock on one wall directly to the cinder-block wall. When I first
Not to beat the proverbial dead horse but i had one more thought that may help you with your problem. As you mentioned even though the basement has no moisture or water issues the walls are still cool to the touch we all know this is natural of course and your theory about the east wall heating up and then cooling off at night what if you helped keep that wall (warmer) at night? If you could maintain some what of a more stable temp on that wall possibly you may be able to cut down on the expansion and contraction that may be the real issue as to why your stuff is becoming unbonded. I don’t know what your heat source is but possibly if you ran something like and electric baseboard heater along that wall or something like that not to blast it with heat but to just help keep the Masonite and wood at a more stable temp.? Another thought is if you have poured concrete walls you can use concrete wall anchors to secure your wood as well as the glue. It may not be the most conventional or correct use of the tool but we used my power nail gun the kind that uses a .22cal shot to secure 2x4’ in to the poured concrete walls of my friends basement along with construction adhesive. Any sort of mechanical fastener along with your glue should make for a great bond.
Concrete will always put out moisture if it is there. It’s cool, and the drylok makes a great surface for condensation, but given the fact the panels are so close to the surface it would make circulation very minimal. The masonite is not particularly great at stability when exposed to moisture, not that it just falls apart, but it will warp and that can put out lots of pressure. That may be why it pulled away from the strips, it just simply overpowered the bond of the glue. It’s not that it delaminated, but I would guess the glue has some little brown fuzzies on it as it was the wood that failed and not the glue. If you are just looking to get it re-attached, the construction glue is probably the way to go but I’d warm it up a bit (set it in the sun or on a register for a while) to get it a little less stiff. Drywall glue is also good for that, but you will have to make sure and hold it where you want for a day or so while it cures.
I cannot give you the exact scientific terms, but as a framer, anything in contact with cement needs either treated wood or a vapor barrier between it and any wood because of the moisture issues, even new houses. Cinder block is a little different and doesn’t act like concrete in this manner, but I still recommend some sort of barrier for moisture control.
Thanks, but I think you are way too humble. You have been involved in HO for quite some time. Even by accident, you must have come up with SOMETHING of note! Don’t Bogart those pics! It’s cool to share.
What you suggest is well noting and I will keep it for future reference. As I think about it now, the separations are not only limited to the east wall but also are limited to those panels on the south end of the east wall. I may need to bring in a meteorologist. [swg]
