Melbourne Tram

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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Paul,

I don’t think there are any semaphore signals on main lines anywhere in Australia now, not for at least five years. The last ones I was familiar with were the automatic semaphores on the Sydney Melbourne line. These were power operated upper quadrant signals controlled by track circuits and had been installed around 1917 along with the double track. These were set up around stations like the old wire actuated lower quadrant signals and could be locally controlled in some locations or switched to track circuit control at other times.

In the big yards at Cootamundra and Junee there were big gantries at each end of the yard, where the main line signals were upper quadrant that would switch back to track circuit control when convenient, while all the other signals were wire actuated lower quadrant signals. A loose 40 foot container took out the north end gantry at Junee about ten years ago. The north end gantry at Cootamundra lasted until the resignalling and is preserved (at right angles to the track) just north of the station building.

I was out taking photos about five years ago at Goondah, a double track horseshoe curve and I was taking photos of a semaphore near the sharp part of the horseshoe when a crowd of railfans arrived at great speed, followed shortly by one of the last (empty) oil trains from Wagga hauled by two EMD hood units with blower engines. So we followed that north instead. I think the semaphores were removed the next week.

A different aspect of single line train working was the electric staff system. A “staff” was a metal rod that was the permission to enter a section of track. The “staff” had the station names stamped on it, and the crew were supposed read the staff before entering the section of track. The staffs were stored in machines at each end of the track section and these were interlocked with eachother electrically so that only one staff could be in use at a time (hence “electric staff”).

This vide

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Peter,

thank you ! " A Steam Train Passes" is breathtaking. The camera work, the people riding, and the 38’s. I really like the 38’s. I like the scene where the enginemen make bacon and eggs in the engine fire. I developed a taste for toast, with butter, a little Vegemite, and a piece of bacon when I was over there. And a good cup of tea ! The background scenery in all these videos transports me back…

I had a feeling the semaphores would be gone. It’s funny how things in memory seem to live that way forever ! Looking at my pictures, I see semaphores at Perth station, in front of commuter trains. And in Townsville, with Queensland Railway diesels. Unless my memory has slipped a cog ( which is entirely possible), I recall those semaphores in Townsville as being rod actuated, or, at least the switches were rod actuated. This area had a small yard, and engine facility. The road engines were cream and tourquoise, and the switchers(shunter) had green highlights as well.

I am familiar with the “staff” operation from one of my videos, which I think is the Bellarine Peninsula Railway. This seems to me a very foolproof way to operate a single track line, as only one train crew can possess the staff, which gives the authority.In this country, we had timetable operation in the earlier years. The train crew knew they had to be " in the clear" at a certain time. I have heard some harrowing stories of a frieght train having but a few minutes to set out some cars, and clear the Main before the express comes through. There is no margin for error. I think if you possess the staff, you have very few worries.

I am enjoying these videos, all of them ! I’ve watched the Garratts videos twice, and find myself going back through the 38’s. This new one has great photography, and it deserves another look !

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Also, at the beginning of " A Steam Train Passes", there is a short clip of vintage footage about the 38’s. I did not realize the 38’s had a one piece cast frame. This is a feateature of the most modern steam engines. They mentioned all of the 38 was built in Australia, except the frame, although they did not mention where it was cast.

On a related note, there is a group in the U.S. building a new Pennsylvania T-1. They are building everything new from scratch. I am a PRR fan, as well as everything else that rolls on rails. If you know anything about the T-1’s, they had a one piece cast steel frame, with 2 sets of cylinders cast in. I believe they came from General Steel Castings. I am curious in 2017 who would have the facilities to pour such a casting? Not to cast any doubt on the project, but the U.S. probably had more heavy industrial capability in 1942 than today. That’s a 50 foot casting !

Any way, I am very impressed with the 38’s.They’re beautiful machines!

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The initial documentary was not completely correct.

The first five 38 class were built by Clyde Engineering at Granville, not by the Eveleigh workshops.

The cast steel beds were indeed General Steels castings. However, also imported were the Boxpok driving wheels and the Delta trailing truck (and its Boxpok wheels) and from Sweden the SKF roller bearings on all axles.

The 1929 built 57 class 4-8-2s also had GSI cast steel beds, but these didn’t include the (three) cylinders. I’m told that the order for 25 cast steel beds for the 57 class was the largest single order placed with GSI for engine beds up to that time.

The 60 class Beyer Garratts each had two cast steel beds including the cylinders, cast by GSI in the USA. The 59 class Baldwin 2-8-2s also had cast beds including the cylinders.

I believe that the cast bed for the PRR S-1 6100 was the longest single casting ever made. Remember that 6100 with tender was as long as a Big Boy with tender.

I think the T-1 will have to have a fabricated bed made. It could be made to look like a casting, but there is nowhere such a casting could be made now.

There is also this video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTNpWX3pwM

made in 2006 and 2007, I think.

They have replicated a scene from “A steam train passes” but not nearly as convincingly in my view. They do identify the location, however. Unfortunately, the scenes intercut views of the locomotive in wartime grey (applied after an overhaul) and the normal green.

In your earlier post, you mentioned semaphores in Queensland.

I visited Queensland in 1994, and again in 2002. The signals were semaphores north of Rockhampton in 1994 but these had all gone by 2002.

I worked as a mechanical engineer for Queensland Railways 45 years ago. I clearly remember tripping over a signal wire in Rockhampton yard (hidden by long grass) and fell down an

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I had a bit of a shock today. I visited an office, and they had a picture of their Brisbane office on the wall. It showed tall skyscrapers along the river in Brisbane. That’s just not what I remember ! And so it goes, it’s been 35 years, I would probably be shocked if I go back. Also, what was the “Train to Kuranda”, with a Queensland Railway diesel up front is now the " Kuranda Scenic Railway", and looks quite upscale. I saw a show on television, and I recognized the water front in Cairns where I had stayed, and they showed a high rise resort. So, it doesn’t surprise me at all that the semaphores are gone. The rod plant that I saw ( I am 90%sure it was Townsville), was to actuate switches, but they did have semaphores,operating electrically.

I like both of those videos " A Steam Train Passes", and “A steam Train Passed”. I like the grey livery almost as much as the green. What I like about the second film is they get a close up of one of the semaphores. That makes me happy.

I am still learning. I realize the operation on the “Bellarine Peninsula Railway”, in one of my videos, is more of a “token” operation. The " staff" operation in a “Steam Train Passes” takes this concept a step further with an electrical interlocking component. Would this be correct ? The second video " A Steam Train Passed" shows a close up of the staff, with the station name engraved on it, as you had mentioned before. It’s interesting to learn about operating practices in other parts of the world !

I have seen the " token" operation in one of my videos from another country, but I can’t recall where that was. Anyway, it’s a great way to guarantee only one train is on the line.

The scenes inside the cab are great ! The " driver" sits on the left in Australia, the " engineer" sits on the right in the U.S. Also, most U.S. engines have a " Johnson bar&

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So, thinking about the screw type reverse ( some Pennsylvania K-4’s had this, also), reminds me of:

Our trip to Japan last year. Many great train museums in Japan. The D-51 Mikado is probably the most famous steam engine in Japan, with many preserved in parks, museums, and they have one in operating condition in Kyoto. So, last year we went to the train museum in Oomiya, just outside Tokyo. I have never actually run a steam engine, but they have a very realistic simulator in the museum.It is the cab of a D-51 Mikado, and all the controls are functional. In front is a movie screen to show the progress. Driver sits on the left, screw type reverse, with calibration numbers on the reverser.

From what I understand, there are different methods of operating a steam engine. The old timers run " by the seat of your pants", which means they listen to the stack, and how hard the engine is working. Then make adjustments to the valve travel for maximum speed, and efficiency.

Technology started to creep in when they started to manage the back pressure in the cylinders.

Eventually came the " valve pilot" that through cams and such, would display to the driver the optimum setting for the valve gear.

Back to the simulator: I was running this D-51 simulator, pulling back the throttle, and there was an instructor working with me. The point was to keep the numbers displayed on the reverse wheel at around “70”, I assume this was optimizing the back pressure in the cylinders.

Yep, blew the whistle, too !

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I had a bit of a shock today. I visited an office, and they had a picture of their Brisbane office on the wall. It showed tall skyscrapers along the river in Brisbane. That’s just not what I remember ! And so it goes, it’s been 35 years, I would probably be shocked if I go back.

My memories of Brisbane date back to early 1970. I was able to score a university vacation job building diesel locomotives in the Rocklea plant of English Electric.

The trams had been gone a bit over a year, so I rode around on buses to get an idea of the city and suburbs. It is totally unrecognisable now. As i recall there was only ONE restaurant open on a Sunday in the CBD. No shops were open on Sunday.

Townsville is pretty much unrecognisable from a railway perspective. The old station is closed, rplaced by one that actually spans the river directly on the main line. It is possible that Townsville had rod-operated signals, but there would be nothing to show for that now. The big workshops closed some time ago.

In New South Wales, the “staff” looked the same whether the interlocked machines were used or not and the system was called “staff operation” with or without the machines. With the machines it was called “electric staff” operation.

Without the machines, there was only one staff, of course. If two trains had to run in the same direction, a “ticket” was issued. The first train ran under authority of the “ticket” a written document from a book with carbon copies, only after the crew sighted the actual staff upon which the “ticket” was issued. The second train was allowed to start, usually after the first had reached the other end of the section, as confirmed by telephone, and it carried the real staff.

If the staff ended up at the wrong end, one of the station staff had to drive a car with the staff to get it to where it was needed and drive back.

So this “staff and ticket” operation was c

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Great explanation of how the staff system operates ! I know what I wanted to ask you next:

I have noticed in these 2 great films"Passes", and “Passed”, the 38’s seem to blow an occasional single blast of the whistle. The " Sherlock" in me awakened, because in the U.S., the whistle has a complete dictionary of signals to communicate with the train crew. An abbreviated list would be :

2 longs, 1short, 1long. Standard whistle sequence for approaching, and passing through a grade crossing.

2shorts. Starting in forward direction.

3 shorts. Starting in reverse.

1 short. after train has come to complete stop, and brakes are applied.

I bring this up because when I was running the D-51 simulator in Japan, I was blowing the grade crossing sequence. That has no meaning in Japan, I think they use the whistle more as a warning. We Americans can forget that this is Not a worldwide standard, just North America. We have so many whistle signals, more than I can name. This probably goes back to the days before radios, and when a Brakeman was just that: a whistle command from the engineer to tighten the brake wheel.

So, my question is: is there a whistle sequence in Australia, for the driver to communicate with the crew ?

Paul

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So, my question is: is there a whistle sequence in Australia, for the driver to communicate with the crew ?

I don’t think there is a standard whistle sequence used in Australia, except the three short whistles are used for reversing. However, I think even ships use three whistles to indicate backing out from a wharf, for example.

A single whistle can be used to indicate starting, or as a warning at a station, crossing or tunnel.

While not directly related, there was a system of bell signals between guards and drivers of suburban electric trains in Sydney. When a train was due to leave, two rings of a bell meant “clear to go” and one meant “stop”. I’ve heard two rings followed by one if a passenger arrived late and ran for a train (when trains still had manual doors that were left open) followed again by two when it was safe to go. Now of course there is a voice connection.

I think there may have been defined whistle signals between lead and “bank” (pusher) locomotives. I’m not sure where I’d find them.

In the first of the videos covering the NSW Northern line, coal trains with small hopper wagons were shown. The private wagons usually had only hand brakes so the guard was expected to apply hand brakes on his van when required, and this was indicated by whistle from the locomotive. This might have been a series of short whistles. There is probably a reference for this somewhere…

Peter

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O.k. Thank you ! Every country develops their own operating standards. In the old days, here in the U.S., different railroads had unique operating standards, and sometimes their own style of signals. Sometimes you could look at a picture and identify the railroad by the signals, and the color of the ballast. Chicago and North Western was known for left hand running on double track. Some railroads preferred to wait until they could assemble one massive train, others believed in short, frequent trains. Some railroads used "searchlight " signals, Pennsylvania used position light signals, N&W color position light signals.

And then there’s the steam locos. In steam days, every road had their own unique style. Some preferred to build their own,some prefered to purchase. Nowadays, after many mergers, we have but a handful of Mega railroads, that have absorbed so many roads of the past. So, the unique personalities of the past are no more. And railroading itself has changed. It used to be every company and factory had their own railroad spur,now most spurs are gone. But railroads move enormous trains of containers and such. Mostly terminal to terminal, not so much to individual shippers.

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Train to Kuranda. 1982.

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QR diesel on the point.

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Over the high bridge.

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Breathtaking!

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In the days of steam.

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Scenic beauty.

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Peter, this is Townsville ?

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