The knuckle is the pivoting part of the coupler. It is the jaw that clasps the jaw of the mating coupler. The knuckle is what opens to un-couple the coulper, and closes to make a coupling. Either the knuckle alone can break, or a part of the rest of the coupler body can break, thus releasing the knuckle. The shank of the coupler can break, allowing the coupler head and its knuckle to separate from the portion of the shank still connected to the draft gear. Or the whole coupler can pull out of the draft gear to which it connects. The draft gear can break. The draft gear is part of the car center sill. The center sill can break, and pull the car in two. The most common pull-in-two breakage is the knuckle. If the break involves more of the coupler (besides the knuckle) or involves the draft gear, it cannot be repaired by the train crew.
Be cautious with self-affirming analysis that substitutes a pre-determined conclusion for actual facts.
The point then was potentially saving lives. Negligence and tort law ensures that the identical priority remains today, perhaps even more so, and particularly because increased congestion and crossing grade use has increased the risk factor several times over. Modern day Hazmat risk concerns and response times has perhaps focused and enhanced railroad concerns over crossing accessibility compared to 40 years ago when, frankly, I don’t recall nearly as much public concern over such issues – on the other hand not nearly as much contingency preparation, either. We are simply a more safety conscious society all the way around.
Railroads are concerned about blocking crossings, and do have safety plans in place to minimize blocked crossings. Notwithstanding what you are reading on this thread, which I find in part simply amazing, and some of which is absolute baloney, they would be absolute fools not to.
And one reason is this: any time there is an identified risk, in order to avoid a negligence per se claim, you have to HAVE A PLAN in place that is designed to minimize the risk. Now, the world is still not perfect, but at least if you have a plan, and have taken “reasonable” steps to implement it, and something bad happens, you avoid the adverse decision that the company has been negligent per se. That’s important because if you are negligent per se you can’t offer any further defense, you cannot offer mitigating factors, a jury is not allowed to consider comparative negligence, and the damages start to go through the roof. Anyone who suggests that a given Class I railroad does not have a
Sorry. I’ll try to be less self-affirming with my analysis substituting pre-determined conclusions for actual facts. Actually, it was just a question. I guess I’m suggesting that things might be different now than in 1973. I can’t say that you’ve convinced me otherwise.
In which ways do you suspect that things would have been different?
I hope someone from the CN us reading this …
First I would place the conductor into a health and fitness club , obviously he walks too slow on ballast shoulders. Everyone here is blaming the CN when the fact is the only one to blame is the train crew.
All trains operating on the former EJ&E must have airhoses taped to prevent a hose from coming apart
All trains on the “J” must have drawbars chained to prevent train separation.
All trains at initial terminals must have all draft components magnafluxed as part of the number one airbrake test .
Any car owner who’s car has a mechanical defect that delays traffic will be party to the costs of installing overpasses.
Each car operating on the EJ&E territory will have automatic devices to uncouple cars in the event a crossing needs to be cut, these devices will be fitted as part of the number one airbrake test. The use of endangered monkeys is acceptable.
If a crossing is blocked for more than 10 minutes, the engine house laborers will be fired
All broken knuckles will be considered as insubordination by the engineers of all previous trains that handled the car and grounds for termination regardless of the railroad that employs the engineers.
Any engineer who willfully and knowingly breaks a knuckle will be considered incompetent and immediately promoted to management.
Any mechanical department employee that inspects a train at its initial terminal will be spanked in front of his/her peers if a broken knuckle is found.
Anyone who bitches about being inundated with stupid rules and regulations shall be vanquished to servitude in Barrington Hills forever.
I was thinking along the lines of a railroads having more switchers around working in yards back in 1973 than today. Sure, a switcher working 20 minutes away could possibly come help out, if…there is a switcher working 20 minutes away. In general, it seems like that would be less likely today than in 1973.
That might be the case. I have no idea how easy it may or may not have been to have gotten another engine out there. Usually, I would expect the crew would just want to deal with it and
You forgot the Judge telling the bailiff, “Bailiff, whack his ……”
Standard discipline for delaying commuter trains everywhere.
[quote user=“Randy Stahl”]
I hope someone from the CN us reading this …
First I would place the conductor into a health and fitness club , obviously he walks too slow on ballast shoulders. Everyone here is blaming the CN when the fact is the only one to blame is the train crew.
All trains operating on the former EJ&E must have airhoses taped to prevent a hose from coming apart
All trains on the “J” must have drawbars chained to prevent train separation.
All trains at initial terminals must have all draft components magnafluxed as part of the number one airbrake test .
Any car owner who’s car has a mechanical defect that delays traffic will be party to the costs of installing overpasses.
Each car operating on the EJ&E territory will have automatic devices to uncouple cars in the event a crossing needs to be cut, these devices will be fitted as part of the number one airbrake test. The use of endangered monkeys is acceptable.
If a crossing is blocked for more than 10 minutes, the engine house laborers will be fired
All broken knuckles will be considered as insubordination by the engineers of all previous trains that handled the car and grounds for termination regardless of the railroad that employs the engineers.
Any engineer who willfully and knowingly breaks a knuckle will be considered incompetent and immediately promoted to management.
Any mechanical department employee that inspects a train at its initial terminal will be spanked in front of his/her peers if a broken knuckle is found.
Anyone who bitches about being inundated with stupid rules and regulations shall be vanquished to servitude in Barrington Hills forever.
No need to be snide or sarcastic. If it was “just a question,” it didn’t need to come fully loaded with your implied answer. I would always caution anyone truly interested in a fair answer to respect the conversation by posing the fair question first. You really can’t go wrong that way, can you?
The posts on this Thread all seem to agree that utilization of crossings is much higher now than in past times. Liability for negligence is arguably greater now than 40 years ago. Trains are running closer together than 40 years ago, and presumably even more available to provide back-up power to pull a stuck train off of key crossings. The public relations effect, due to increasing population density, is far greater than it was 40 years ago. The public need (and the railroad’s need) to ensure crossing availability in the case of a railroad accident or other emergencies is surely greater than ever. The railroad’s ability to provide faster response is enhanced by modern communications.
I think we did a pretty good job 40 years ago. I think railroads do a better job today, and must do so in order to be “lean and competitive.”
.The resources are much better, and I think they are deployed much better today. They can afford to. That wasn’t always the case in the 1970s. For all of the reasons posted, I do think it is much more important today than 40 years ago, as the Barrington situation seems to suggest, because the implications and impact on society – a society that still in
In 1973, we did, in fact, have a trailing freight about two hours out, and the train with the incident was ten miles out of the yard. I can neither speculate that this CN train had a switcher in close proximity or a trailing freight close by or that it didn’t. My initial reading of this Thread saw arguments about how the rail traffic had made this a heavily congested line in a relatively urban area. That led to one conclusion. The observation that someone else thought that it was a light line of only ten trains a day leads to another conclusion assuming trains were evenly spaced throughout the day.
What I can finally conclude is that 1) non-railroaders have one set of expectations, 2) some “railroaders” would like the railfans to believe there should be no expectations.
I can’t say that reasonable expectations of respect for public safety and convenience are, ipso facto, wrong. They may be unrealistic, but the concept is valid at some level. As I have attempted to suggest, there are plenty of reasons, in the self-interest of the railroad industry, to accomodate the reasonable expectations of the public, because when the crisis comes, positioning highway access after a knuckle break is just useful practice for the Hazmat incident.
And for those in the rail industry who downplay it, I will say that they are in minority. Responsible officials do, in fact, plan around these incidents, and for them, and denigrating the public for expecting something that is, in fact, the admitted r
For all you that are decrying the amount of time it took the CN crew to resolve this situation…find a area that has walking conditions similar to main track ballasted tracks…with a sloped ballast shoulder for crewmen to walk on and vehicles to inspect every 30-40 feet (inspection that is more than just a passing glance) and see how long it takes … especially those that believe said crewman should have in his posession all possible mechanical parts and tools to fix the possible problems that could have stopped the train in the first place. Inspecting trains for mechanical defects is not like taking a afternoon walk around the streets and sidewalks of one’s neighborhood.
I’m not sure that I agree with your presumption that me repeating your words back to you makes me snide or sarcastic one. Nor, am I sure I understand why any question has to be asked in any pre-approved manor. You and I seem to communicate on different levels. If that is causing you some heartburn, I apologize.
Fair question: Are you/ were you a railroader? I am not. Therefore, I’m trying to learn more. Does your backgrou
OK - time for a step back.
How many of us have had the pleasure of changing a knuckle? Raise your hand.
Here’s the problem I see. If it was a drawbar pulled out, then yeah, you better mobilize the troops, find another engine and start splitting crossings. But a knuckle is usually a quick fix. By the time you get everything pulled apart, you could have changed it out 3 times. So, what do you do? Just try to fix it and go about your way, or take a gamble and try to find another crew and engine to start towards your train - just to arrive in time for you to have it fixed?
zugman: There seem to be varying opinions among the railroaders on how long it would take to replace/repair a broken/pulled knuckle (I believe that was the problem, at least according to the CN spokesperson). As you generally provide us reasonable information these things, what do you think?
[(-D][(-D][(-D]
Me, reasonable? Don’t spread that around - I have a reputation to keep.
How much time? Well, not the greatest answer, but it depends. There are way too many variables that I don’t know.
Now once you get the correct knuckle, pin, and some sort of hammering tool right there at the broken knuckle, shouldn’t take more then a few minutes - if you know what you are doing. Full disclosure: when I was on the road, I never had to replace a knuckle, and it would have given me a few minutes of head scratching time before I got started. Now that I’m in a yard where we shift without air, we tend to find problem knuckles really fast. Of course if you have a brakeman on the crew (usually me), then it is real easy. Then you at least can have someone hold the cut lever up so the “guts” don’t come spilling out.
And that’s if something else isn’t messed up in the coupler that makes it impossible to swap the knuckle out.
Now getting up to the point above is what causes the biggest delay (and has been touched upon by multiple people in this thread).
My limited experience with broken knuckles was in the same general area: 2% grade, 10 degree curves, 200 foot trestles, 600 feet to the valley floor below. I was not T&E but rode once in while when I could because it got me to where I was going and I enjoyed the trip. Spare knuckles were located on the ROW every few hundred yards. On past trips I had always assumed those were broken ones, but as it turned out, some were, but those were mainly good knuckles strategically located. It was an interesting approach to “being prepared” and I haven’t noticed that done anywhere else.
My most vivid memory there was one winter evening, and a cold air mass hitting a warm air mass, ten degree trip, heavy snowstorm, wet snow, cold wind, cold rails, uphill, 6,000 tons, lots of power up front and helpers behind. Before the days of fancy software. Sanders going all the way, but the wind was blowing and when you slipped you slipped and when it grabbed it grabbed. Broken train. The conductor was an old family friend, so I volunteered to go help him. It was a white-out and likely a ten below zero wind chill. Found the break, about 20 cars back, he kicked around in the snow for a while and found a spare knuckle. I had the light jacket and no gloves, he had the heavy parka and heavy gloves. Since he was 62 and I was 27, I offered to carry the knuckle. He said “sure” and gave me his gloves. He knew the drill. Well, after a couple hundred feet, 75 lbs starts to get pretty heavy. Anyway, it was a reasonably miserable experience for me. It took about 45 minutes, part of it walking backwards into the wind and snow, and that included trying to find the replacement knuckle.
So when I see that it took two hours in the relative tropical paradise of Illinois on a comparative pool table surface, it did get my attention.
http://www.pioneerlocal.com/barrington/news/2820972,barrington-railroad-102010-s1.article
Was it? According to this article, Metra was only forced to slow down. My guess was that Metra could not get signals accross the diamond, forcing them to be talked by the signal. The article also states that the RT 59 crossing was blocked “at times” so it sounds as though the crew cleared as many crossings as possible.
Except according to reports it took an hour and a half, not two.
Most yards I’ve been at have had knuckles and pins in different spots. Not on