Once upon a time there was the Mixed. Lots of them.
They went everywhere, frequently on odd and out of the way lengthy routes. The CNR had quite a myriad of mixed trains. There were plenty as well in the US. Many of these routes they took are on old historic trackage that have now long been lifted and no longer in existence.
Below is an example of what today appears to be quite a strange circuitous crooked route. Fort Erie to Goderich via Paris, Brantford and Stratford. Canadian readers will know but US readers might have to look that up. It’s all in Southern Ontario, roughly Buffalo to a point close to Port Huron. Wouldn’t it be spiffy to ride in the combine for a great adventure. Too bad these still did not exist, they would become legendary with railfans.
This pic shows a rare RSC 13 in Classic CNR green and gold. Built by MLW/Alco there were ever only 35 of them and all built for the CNR.
1700 with a short mixed train with a combine bringing up the markers.
The only mixed that ran through Paris Jct. was the one between Fort Erie and Goderich
via Brantford and Stratford (Buffalo, Brantford & Goderich Railway).
Only thirty five RSC-13’s were built — between 1955 and 1957 — and were numbered 1700–1734 by CN. The locomotives were conceived by MLW to meet CN’s specification for light weight
Shape of the hoods is subtlely different. Of course what you meant was RSD, not RS, as even in the picture provided you can see the three-axle trucks.
The whole history of these A-1-A trucked road-switchers in the Maritimes is fascinating. These had 539Ts, like the RS-1s, but there were others (RSC24s) that were built with the 244s taken out of FPAs being given 251s, with the engines derated to match the weight and number of traction motors. There were also RSC14s, which used the trucks off the -13s and -24s on a bunch of RS18s for the lighter service.
And then, of course, there was this, I think adaptive re-use for heavy switching although I’ve seen a reference that it was for ‘express’ service:
I’ll bet some of our resident Canadians have the ‘whole skinny’ on this little design excursion…
Apparently one problem with the A-1-A trucks in freight service was that the outside wheeltreads would wear preferentially (or require more frequent returning) and become smaller over time, which was said to cause problems loading the outer axles even through the equalization, and this was an attempt to save some of the investment in truck frames and so on. It did not, apparently, succeed, and the trucks were returned to A-1-A configuration, but it certainly has interest! (I am surprised the expedient used on some of the GMD-1s, fitting a smaller (perhaps progressively smaller!) center wheelset, wasn’t at least tried… perhaps we shall find out that it was.)
I believe there was a similar conversion in New Zealand that was left as modified, alt
Speaking of mixed trains, I personally define any passenger trains that carried considerable head-end, mail and express cars as a mixed train, PRR’s Manhattan Limited was an example. My favorite diesel switcher is MN&S’s Baldwin DT-6-6-2000.
Jones-- A Mixed carried freight and passenger, usually just a combine almost always on branch lines. Something like the Manhatten Limited would be called Mail and Express. Thise big Baldwins were Transfer Locomotives. I believe Santa Fe used them in helper service for a time.
GENUINE Mixed trains handled car load and less than car load freight as well as a ‘rider’ passenger car of most any kind, normally either a full coach or a combine baggage/coach. If there was any heat on the passenger car it would come from some form of independent stove in the car - no steam heat and no air conditioning.
Mail and Express cars were equipped with steam lines as they could be used in ‘regular’ passenger trains in addition to specific Mail & Express trains. Mail & Express only trains would have some form of a rider car for the train crew - PRR used their regular Cabin Cars - B&O and a number of other roads use passenger cars of a ‘unimproved’ nature - walk over straight back seats, no A/C.
If you ever have a chance to go to Goderich and Stratford, go. They are very Victorian English looking. Stratford still has an active yard and the abandoned CN backshop, their largest I believe. Goderich is an active lakeport with a large underground salt mine that extends out under the lake. Stratford is also known for their Shakespeare Festival. Both are fascinating places.
Just as a note, I believe NDG means ‘751 motors’ (as in traction motors). I don’t want anyone to confuse this with ‘251’ diesel engines in this specific context.
Speaking of mixed trains, I personally define any passenger trains that carried considerable head-end, mail and express cars as a mixed train, PRR’s Manhattan Limited was an example. My favorite diesel switcher is MN&S’s Baldwin DT-6-6-2000.
GENUINE Mixed trains handled car load and less than car load freight as well as a ‘rider’ passenger car of most any kind, normally either a full coach or a combine baggage/coach. If there was any heat on the passenger car it would come from some form of independent stove in the car - no steam heat and no air conditioning.
Mail and Express cars were equipped with steam lines as they could be used in ‘regular’ passenger trains in addition to specific Mail & Express trains. Mail & Express only trains would have some form of a rider car for the train crew - PRR
In July of 1951, I rode in a car with walkover sets on Southern’s #43 from Birmingham to New Orleans (7 in the morning to 7 in the evening). It seems that the car was air-coditioned because I was quite comfortable, wearing a dress coat, for the 12 hour trip. I do remember a fan near the ceiling at at least one end of the car I was in the previous night between Atlanta and Birmingham on #11. I do not recall how it was overnight on #136 overnight from Atlanta to Charlotte–all three cars had walkover seats. I also do not recall discomfort two years later when I rode in another such car overnight from Atlanta to Charlotte on #36.
I do not remember anything about the car I rode in January of 1938 as we rode from Rock Hill, S.C. to the town where I grew up–I was only two years old. I do not doubt that it had walkover seats. I expect it did have steam heat since the train was still a passenger train then–a few years later, it became a mixed train, and about 1952 the caoch was taken off.
As to the picture of the Canadian mixed train, I hope no new official rode in the winter with the stove at the rear of car–he may have directed that stoves be at the front of such cars.[:)]
Flintlock76
Interesting, that RSC13, I’ve never heard of it until now. On casual observation I’d have assume it was an RS3 and thought no more of it.
Shape of the hoods is subtlely different. Of course what you meant was RSD, not RS, as even in the picture provided you can see the three-axle trucks.
The whole history of these A-1-A trucked road-switchers in the Maritimes is fascinating. These had 539Ts, like the RS-1s, but there were others (RSC24s) that were built with the 244s taken out of FPAs being given 251s, with the engines derated to match the weight and number of traction motors. There were also RSC14s, which used the trucks off the -13s and -24s on a bunch of RS18s for the lighter service.
And then, of course, there was this, I think adaptive re-use for heavy switching although I’ve seen a reference that it was for ‘express’ service:
I’ll bet some of our resident Canadians have the ‘whole skinny’ on this little design excursion…
Apparently one problem with the A-1-A trucks in freight service was that the outside wheeltreads would wear preferentially (or require more frequent returning) and become smaller over time, which was said to cause problems loading the outer axles even through the equalization, and this was an attempt to save some of the investment in truck frames and so on. It did not, apparently, succeed, and the trucks were returned to A-1-A configuration, but it certainly has interest! (I am surprised the expedient used on some of the GMD-1s, fitting a smaller (perhaps progressively smaller!) center wheelset, wasn’t at least tried… perhaps we shall find out
I’ve been around my share of Mixed Trains. That top photo reminds me of what our Mixeds looked like the last summer we were at Irricana. I was too young to realize the economic implications of that, mixed service ended two years later, 1967.
I never knew the exact legal wording, but if a train hauled one or more full carloads of freight along with passengers, it was a Mixed Train. LCL carloads of freight, express, or mail in a passenger train still meant it was a passenger train.
One intersting thing the CNR did with their combines was build wood doors to cover the end opening on the vestibule to provide an enclosed porch for winter service. You can see one on the video “Canadian Steam 1957”, by Greg Scholl Video. I have no idea how to get a still from that video into this post. The CPR had canvas sheets they secured to the diaphram with a large rope looped around and tucked into the folds. I guess you wouldn’t need that in Georgia. And Johnny, there are many harrowing stories written about trying to stay warm in combines heated with only a coal stove.
Paul North Jr. once raised an interesting question many years ago on the TRAINS forum, branchlines seemed to be able to survive if they hauled two major seasonal commodities, but could they survive with only one? From what I saw, no. No one new it the day it happened, but either in the fall of '63 or '64, an extra coal drag passed the station SB from East Coulee, AB, and there were no more. Grain alone couldn’t cut it, the Langdon Sub. was done by 1970.
One other thing to point out about Mixed Trains in Canada, each Province had their own regulation as to whether a caboose was required behind the combine. You notice this even in this thread, the Ontario train has no caboose, the Quebec one does. Alberta required a caboose.
The story often featured on the Classic Trains homepage about the Northern Alberta Railway tells of how the NAR built bay windows on the combine to be able to see the freigh
Great story Bruce. …and congrats on the new 'puter.
Now that’s the spirit I was hoping for with a thread on Mixed Trains and their locomotives. There must be a ton of stories about Mixed trains.
Last Mixed I rode was on the NAR fron top to bottom. Boarded me in a yard. Slept like a baby in my seat.
Wish I could have rode on that Fort Erie to Goderich Mixed via Paris. Must have gone thru Jarvis and Simcoe then North to Brantford. All rural. That whole segment is gone. Just ghosts now. So historic too and important! If only we could go.
Backshop is spot on. If you go to Stratford get yourself there. It’s outstanding. Paris is quite a rustic and historic town, small but charming. Big railway presence and big railway bridge. Goderich is a jewel, " Canada’s prettiest small town" said the Queen. Remarkable sunsets on Lake Huron and everyone but everyone has magnificient flower gardens.
CPR and CNR presence, CPR was the bigger dog but no more for either. Shortline operator Goderich-Exeter keeps the rails alive and polished.
They even have a preserved CPR U-3 Class 0-6-0 indoors in beautiful shape that worked the yards and carfloats all its life.
6295 with smokebox door open.
D-10 892 on shop track for Mixed train in foreground. 6275 in background.
July 1955 Harry Otterbein/Randy Masales Collection
Apparently one problem with the A-1-A trucks in freight service was that the outside wheeltreads would wear preferentially (or require more frequent returning) and become smaller over time, which was said to cause problems loading the outer axles even through the equalization, and this was an attempt to save some of the investment in truck frames and so on. It did not, apparently, succeed, and the trucks were returned to A-1-A configuration, but it certainly has interest! (I am surprised the expedient used on some of the GMD-1s, fitting a smaller (perhaps progressively smaller!) center wheelset, wasn’t at least tried… perhaps we shall find out that it was.)
I believe there was a similar conversion in New Zealand that was left as modified, although the DAs had Flexicoil rather than drop-equalizer trucks, so the suspension implications were different.
Certainly the differential wear was a problem with the Queensland G12s with Flexicoil trucks. These were intended to put 15 tons on each driving axle and nine tons on the idler axle. Fifteen tons was the maximum allowable on main lines, having been raised from 12.5 tons on the basis that the diesels lacked the “hammer blow” of reciprocating steam locomotives.
I recall being told that on one G12 weighed at Ipswich they found 17 tons on the idler and 11 tons on each of the worn driving axles. The problem with using a smaller axle to start with was that with the same springs, more than the magic 15 tons would appear
I can’t find it right now, but there is a regulation (Provincial?) requiring a buffer car between a pressurized steam locomotive boiler and occupied passenger equipment. Alberta Prairie does not have any wyes or turntables so the engine must run backward in one direction, putting the boiler directly next to the train.
We used to run with a actual auxiliary tender and/or baggage car behind CN 1392 for the same reason:
Today the tender is considered as meeting the buffer car requirement, but this was not the case in years past, so an additional buffer car was required. The tank car fulfilled this requirement, and was equipped with a headlight for the backup portion of the run:
