Model railroading across the world - Cultural differences?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

As a Finn, I find the variety of foreign cultures to be quite interesting. Especially when it comes to model railroading. From what I can tell, Europe and USA are two very distinct worlds in this respect and never shall the two meet.

From what I can tell, European layouts are typically very small. I guess we have less and smaller garages and basements. Of course, Euro prototypes are smaller (shorter distances, shorter trains, shorter wheelbases), too, so there might not be a need for that 30" turn radius.

Another interesting thing are kits. There’s no such thing for Euro stuff. Our stuff is almost universally ready-to-roll. Many hobbyists’ve grown up on Märklin, and are quite used to “open box, place on track, turn knob” as being the standard installation procedure. the idea that one would have to spend 2 to N hours assembling, painting and weathering the thing before use would be preposterous to us.

My personal pet peeve are couplings, though. There are no European standards, de facto or otherwise. At present, there are at least three rival close coupling types commonly seen with the big manufacturers (Märklin, Roco and Fleischmann), that have roughly the same operating characteristics but are completely incompatible. On the flip side, at least there’s the saving grace of the NEM 362 quick-change universal coupling pocket.

Then there’s the Internet. To date, I’ve found only one decent-sized European model train forum, and even that was completely anaemic. Of course, since HO is nigh-unheard-of in UK, maybe I should look for one in Deutsch.

Just my two cents, feel free to chime in here if you’ve ever pondered the same topic, about the hobby which both unites and divides us.

2

Hello Agamemnon,

I hang around the American forums because of the vast range of topics and enthusiastic people on them, there’s one in Poland that’s good if you can speak Polish http://www.forum.martel.pl/index.php

There is a very strong following of HO here in Britain including myself, i know loads of people who do it, OO is about to get dragged into the 21st centuary when Bachmann and Hornby launch loco’s with sound as standard in November,

3

With all due respect, I don’t think you have looked hard or long enough. I know lots of people from Europe that model USA style in all the popular scales. Some are good friends of mine, but due to language issuse most are from England. One even has a quite nice forum at http://www.all-model-railroading.co.uk/forum/ . As to kits, what about Kirbi and Faller? As to spending times building, that’s part of the fun. Maybe our European brother need to re-discover that? Also, don’t forget the Japaneese, they do some wonderful modeling. http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~ksn/model/saikatsu_tramway.htm

As to real rolling stock, well sure it’s different. Our stuff is made in Canada LOL and yours comes from wherever, and is built to totally different standards. So our models will look different and have different couplers than yours. We also have had different model coupler standards here over the years, we have knuckle couplers such as Kadee, horn hook couplers, and Baker couplers just to name a few HO couplers.

Nor does all us Yanks have lots of space to build big layouts, or want to build big layouts. http://www.carendt.us/ is a site for micro layouts.

4

I can’t speak Japanese at all, so I’ve hitherto found very little on the modelling community there, so any light others might shed on it and other areas I’ve neglected is welcome. It’s true I didn’t consider building kits at all, being mostly focused on locos and rolling stock. I still think buying things ready-made is a more European trend.

The coupling thing annoys me way more than it should, I know. It’s just that the only NEM-standardized HO-scale coupling is the hoop coupler most people know from 60s-era Märklin trains. Looks bad, has average operating characteristics, no delayed uncoupling.

I’m a victim of stereotypes, I know, but it’s often the case that a lie can travel around the world before truth gets its boots on.

5

Yep, I agree that not all Americans do big layouts. As much as I wish I had room for something larger, here’s all I have room for, and I’m as American as apple pie. In metric it works out to 91.4 cm x 203.2 cm:

It’s 100% portable.

Honestly, I think there’s a practical limit for me personally with regard to what I would do with an infinite space. I’m a bit of a lone wolf modeler so I probably wouldn’t want to take on anything bigger than, let’s say 12x12 feet or 4 x 4 m in N scale. Many (obvously not all) of the big layouts here (and probably overseas) never get beyond benchwork and track phase. I think room-size is ideal for me even if I have, say, an entire basement. I’d turn the rest into a workshop, crew lounge, and railroad library.

6

There are also groups of modellers in the US who do European prototype layouts. There’s one of these groups that regularly exhibits at local shows here in Massachusetts. They’ve really managed to capture the European look in their layout, and it’s someplace I always spend some time studying at every show.

Thanks to some time my father-in-law spent working in Italy, I’ve got a small collection of European cars and locomotives. As you’ve said, the couplers are completely incompatable with my Kadee knuckles from the US. Unfortunately, the wheel flanges are so large that I can’t even run the engines on Code 100 track.

I’m also afraid that kit-building, at least for rolling stock, is in decline here too, as manufacturers switch to ready-to-roll for all of their products. Structures, however, are still very much dominated by kits.

7

For whatever reason, when my Dad was employed by an American mining company in the high Andes of Peru many years ago, when my folks decided to give the boys a toy train set, it was a Marklin. I am sure he knew a neighbour who modeled N. American roads, so why the Marklin is anyone’s guess. Still, I felt the product was top notch, and enjoyed the locomotives very much…although they did not resemble what I had come to drool over during my early youth near Sudbury, ON. INCO’s mining sites had all sorts of trackage, and steam was still in use in 1957, just as we departed for our nine years in Peru.

It was not until my later adult years that I suddenly began to notice Model Railroader magazine, and their Classic Trains magazine with all of its 1940’s photos of heavy steam, particularly the articulated ones, sent me right off the deep end. I was soooooooo hooked.

Accordingly, what I knew at first, and what I came to know better as a mature thinker, has become the standard for me. I find the British steam to be quirky or odd looking, but have enough understanding to know that it is purely a cultural bias.

I believe that railroading almost everywhere in the developed world is far superior to what existed in the 1920’s, for example. I had an occasion to travel by train between Zagreb and Bled a few years back while on NATO peacekeeping duty in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was an amazingly smooth and quiet ride, and I was impressed. The locos were electric on catenary, and although distinctly Eastern European, they performed flawlessly… I am embarassed to admit that I was surpised by that. [%-)]

8

I think that although we all share a common interest in a great hobby, there are definitely cultural differences as well as social differences based on the relative “speed” of any particular culture.

I am South African and I model modern US (UP) largely because this is freely available. Our local railway system is State-run (what a mess it currently is too) and is also narrow-gauge (3’6") - this already poses a “cultural difficulty” - scratch-building everything is just not an option when you work a 60+ hour week.

I do have a few observations of my own (just an opinion so easy on the flames:)

  1. The few British modelelers I know can be incredible rivet counters - some times even down to the rivets on a bridge!
  2. UK layouts are often very small - agreed - most of my UK mates would be over the moon with 4X8 of free space
  3. Operations-based layouts in the UK are totally different to operations-based layouts in the US - UK layouts are much more switching oriented whereas US ones tend to cover many more miles in the process.
  4. Change in the MR hobby happens a lot slower in the UK than in Europe or the US - witness the popularity of DCC as an example - many of my UK mates still view this as “new stuff” - not to be trusted :slight_smile:
  5. US and UK modellers tend to favour realism a lot more than the Europeans - weathering, realistic rolling stock, couplers, track etc.

BTW - any other South Africans out there?

Well, my 2c worth - I think there are differences - but this makes the hobby great!

9

When it comes to religion I am a protestant but when it come to trains I am catholic, I like them all. [:)]

edit: I have to limit myself though when it comes to modelling (midwest USA) or nothing but collecting gets done…

While saving for that dream trip to Peru and Bolivia I actually went to Japan for a 4 week holiday.

An observation on modelling differences: much of the differences can be traced to the philosophies of the producers of our models I think.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

10

http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~ksn/model/saikatsu_tramway.htm for a start. At the bottom of the page you will find a link to trainweb sites, great exploring out there.

11

If you are talking about models from the 1950’s, Marklin was one of the best back then.

12

No dispute; I could tell they were not cheap at the time. Still, my point is that while my father could just as easily provided a USA prototype, for some unfathomable reason (perhaps a recommendation from someone who worked for him at the time) he chose the Deutsch prototype. So, while in Peru, a Canadian family enjoyed German trains. Later, when I could perhaps be bonkers about CPR or CNR/PGE/GTW steam, I am most thrilled with Pennsy. Further, even though I grew up with standard gauge Beyer-Garratt locos in the Andes, I have no particular interest in them.

Electro-love is gah-gah (is that a MRR term?) over UP and generally western USA rail. Karl (UKGuy) is so deep into a Vancouver Island trestle and railway system that it must almost hurt. And so on. Our host for this thread seems to like US rails, too.

I guess the availability and marketing of MRR stuff in N. America is what got to me, but how does that explain the interest from yonder?

13

MisterBeasley,
Not to doubt you, but I was wondering which shows this Euro layout does here in Massachusetts. I go as a dealer with the NHRHTA to the following shows every year that have portable layouts:

Taunton
Brockton
Wakefield
Marlboro
Fall River
Foxboro
Hingham
Springfield

Maybe I’m just not very observent, but I don’t recall too many Euro layouts on display at too many of these shows that I’ve been to here in Massachusetts in the past 15 years that I’ve been doing them. Maybe I’m not going to the right shows?

As for the original subject matter, I think it’s rather obvious that there are differences between all the major model RR hubs: North America, Europe, Japan, and Australia. This is based mostly on environment and exposure to a prototype.

For example, in Japan and Europe, distances are short, population density is high, and passenger trains are considered necessary while freight trains are short, light and infrequent. This tends to lead to passenger train modelers being more prevalent than in North America, leading towards operations of trains by the clock rather than by the waybill. Due to the generally smaller living quarters, modelers in Japan and Europe tend focus on more on modeling a specific smaller area or junction, with trains wizzing by left and right on tight schedules. These tend to use imaginative staging yards at each end that allow trains to be switched on or off the visible part of the layout fairly quickly. The smaller layout also tends towards a more detailed one, as well.

As for North America, distances are long, population density for most of the continent is low, and passenger trains are considered an annoyance to some, while freight trains are heavy, long & frequent. This tends to lead to freight train modelers being more prevalent than in North America, with most modelers not caring for operations by the clock, just by the waybill (that’s car movement over tr

14

In Ozz, because the local system is small, many modellers go for UK or USA outline. Some go for European but not much. Local modelling is done but the models are few and far between. If you want to model Aussie outline you would have to be prepared to build kits. Lots of them.

Another forum I belong to recently had a lot of discussion on this subject and our conclusions were that Europeans (excluding the UK) prefer ready to roll with minimal modelling and they don’t mind out of scale track and wheels as long as it operates efficiently.

The UK scene tends to be dominated by pedants or rivet counters who insist on everything being exact. They tend to have small finely detailed layouts.

The concensus on US modelling was that it’s a bit like the UK but on a larger scale. It insists on scale accuracy but to the point where it makes the trains difficult to run on a small layout. My US outline locos and coaches need radii twice to three times what my UK and German trains will go round. My feelings are that this results from the larger layout space available to many Americans.

I guess the culture is different because of the different conditions available to each nationality.

In terms of forums, this European one is pretty good.

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?act=home

15

This I believe to be true. Someone recently pointed out to me that the reason European models have those big, pizzacutter flanges is that for a very long time, the typical turn radius on a Euro layout was 15 to 18 inches. Even today, these two are typically the only radii readily available from major manufacturers.

16

Paul3 wrote: <"And Aussies? Hard to figure. There’s a lot of them, I know that. LOL Where’s Mark Newton when you need him? Most Aussies I have met on the 'net are either North American or Euro modelers, so I can’t really get a feel for what they are like compared to the Europeans, Japanese, or North Americans. I’m sure they will now chime in and tell me. "> G’day, Paul! My entirely subjective opinion, based on blokes I know who model Australian prototype, is that their main interest is in the actual modelbuilding, rather than operations. I have a number of mates who are involved in a large 7mm/O scale exhibition layout, and almost all of them have become cottage manufacturers of loco, carriage and wagon kits to support this project. Likewise, my two local clubs both have large numbers of keen modelbuilders, but few are interested in realistically operating those models. Most club and exhibition layouts don’t readily support prototypical operation, in my experience. I’d also say that historical modelling is very popular here, or atleast among the blokes I knock around with. Out of a dozen people, only one is interested in the modern scene. Mind you, I’ll cheerfully admit to being atypical in my own modelling interests - there’s not too many Australians modelling minor Japanese electric railways in HOj… Cheers, Mark.

17

Let me tell you my story… When I was 6 years old I got my first real train. I grew up with Märklin and my friend had Fleischman. I did not like Märklin at all because of the ugly track. And I could never understand the third rail in the middle. So when I got older I tried to build a Swedish layout with Peco track. This was long before DCC hit the market. But the Swedish trains was not good, no flywheels and they did not run any good so I decided to stop building my layout. At the same time I heard of US locos like Atlas and I was hooked because the quality is much much better in the US. The US locos was also very interesting because they did not look like Swedish locos at all. Another thing that I really liked was the fact that you have many railroad companies in the US. In Sweden we had one at the time called SJ (State railroad). But I did not continue to build at that time because bigger things happened in my life. I got my first child. 2 years ago I decided to look at the hobby again and see what have changed. The swedish locos is still crap and DCC really made all the difference to me. So I started out building my dream layout. But after a while I stopped because I started out in the wrong way. Then I started to read everything that Joe Fugate wrote and that really changed everything. So now I’m here with a 1300 square feet layout room. Working night and day with my Rio Grande dream. It’s hard sometimes to get things here in Sweden. I have no LHS or store where I can buy things. Many things that you US guys take for granted are impossible to find here. Most of the things I have is ordered from the US and it cost a lot of money. But hey, I don’t care. I really love this hobby. Thanks guys for helping me out with hundreds of questions. I can honestly say that without you guys I would not build anything at all.

18

There are many US fans here in Britain as a visit to any train show will prove. However the same visit will also show that the average age of modellers seems to be 60+! Most will have grown up wanting to be train drivers (engineers) and build what is familiar to them and what they remember from their youth. I prefer the look of American trains although what I see is probably a somewhat idealised version of your reality. To me, model railways are about the whole layout, scenery, buildings, vehicles etc. and I can see ‘our’ version every day. (I do, as a driver for Virgin Trains!). For escapism I much prefer to model U.S.

19

From what I have been able to garner from Tetsudo Mokei Shumi, the Japanese (and Japanese language) model railroading magazine, layouts in Japan fall mainly into two categories:

  1. Modules, some bare (except for trackwork) individually-owned components of large club layouts that are occasionally assembled and operated in spaces large enough to accept them - usually public halls, school gymnasiums and the like. (The assembled layouts are typically a multiplicity of loops with one or two yards and a couple of passenger stations.) Others are small, intricately-detailed dioramas, either stand-alone or a couple in series.
  2. Little gems - complete layouts, very small, detailed to the Nth degree.

There are also a lot of craftspersons who assemble absolutely perfect models from either raw-materials kits (sheet brass, roll your own boiler) or just raw materials.

My own modeling has one foot in US practice and the other in Japanese prototype. The scene is a double garage in Nevada approximately six meters square, which is being transformed (very slowly) into a few kilometers of Japan National Railway route as it was in September, 1964. Realistically, I will probably never reach the level of detail typical in Japan.

Chuck

20

Good thread!! Theres a meet in the fall, last weekend actually that, darnit, I was unable to attend due to proir commitments,happens at Lynden WA. Its a town in Northwestern WA state close to the Canadian border. The Canadian modelers from across the border are crackejack modelers and a few model Scottish or English prototype, And they are as you say small but well detailed. However their modular club layouts are large and well detailed with individuals working on their own modules.Culturally Canadian railroading and U.S. rairoading seem very similar to me. On the outside at least. But the Scottish and English guys are fun to see.[:(!]