thumbing thru some older issues of MR last night I had a thought on what model railroading must have been like before the internet came about. I’ve always had the internet as a resource as long as I have been into the hobby.
No sharing of ideas, no Ebay, no online resources, perhaps folks were more innovative? more reliant on local clubs and hobby stores too.
From an old timer let me tell you, it sucked!
If you had any questions you had to venture into the model RR dedicated LHS, a forboding place if you weren’t “one of the gang”. Ask a question and get treated like " what do you want now…?" or getting the look like “only an idiot would ask that question” from the staff if you could get any help at all. Or go the general LHS, ask, and get a look like you just asked a question in Klingon to them.
Same for clubs as it is today, if you didnt “fit” with their socio-political profile, you werent welcome. Hence us Lone Wolf Commie Pinko modelers were left to figure out things on our own. Read a lot , ALOT of books and guides, religiously study anything we could find on the subject then just give it a try and hope it worked! Sometimes your mountains looked like Mountains, sometimes more like Muffins…
Well, it’d be near-impossible for me without the web. I’d still be running SD40-2s with transition era cars and not realising the mistake! Photo sites like railpictures are pretty much essential for determining what ran with what. The ability to call up a model manufacturers website and look at photos/specifications of a loco or car is also very handy - again, without this I’d have bought more than a few unsuitable items and also missed out on some great models.
Well it was not very easy. I purchased a lot of books and subscribed to all the popular magazines. My layouts were all freelance as I didn’t know how to build a prototypical layout.
I joined a Club and that is where I learned a lot as well as shared my experiences. I learned how to build layouts based on the real thing, learned about the train shows and the NMRA.
Now all you have to do is get on the net. It does keep a lot of modelers closet hobbyists as they do not get out and join a Club or the NMRA and participate the local Division activities.
BOB H Clarion, PA
Javern,
It’s funny you should bring this up. I was just contemplating that thought recently myself.
I’ve gained SO much info, knowledge, and help through this and other forums that I’m not sure how long it would have taken to get the where I am now. Oh, I’ve still got a lot to learn but I have definitely benefitted from the convenience of being able to log on and glean from those whose knowledge base is far greater than mine.
I hope that I have, in some way, been able to give back a small amount of what I’ve learned over the past 9 months. Thank you, everyone!
Tom
Right. Here we go. For me the internet started back in the mid 90’s but prior to that time you had to visit LHS’s in the area constantly to stay up to date. Train shows were the places to go for learning about new things. MR was the way you learned about new items in the hobby.
Brass folks stayed in thier own kingdom, the rest aspired to own a brass engine. I tried several times to write a short paragraph here explaining my view but cannot keep it impartial. Perhaps there is a view back in those days “Those who own brass and those who dont own brass” I dont know… maybe I’m wrong.
You could go into a LHS and get anything you want literally on demand.
1- No deadlines for orders
2- Limited run MEANT one time runs as a SPECIAL and very high quality model not a tool to keep thousands of customers hanging for a year or more before recieving the item IF they ordered before the deadline which SOME LHS’s dont get the word out in time.
3- You could pick up a locomotive from a wall filled with locomotives. Now you may see one or two engines, the rest are special order.
4- Blue Box kits and similar ruled in the day. Many many many detail parts were also on hand to help super detail the kits.
5- You either superdetailed or built from scrap materials exactly what you wanted. The mark of a true modeler was one who can build what is not offered as a factory item.
6- Clubs were places where you can really enjoy the hobby with others, but watch out!! if you dont fit in you will be wasting your time there.
7- You constantly asked questions. A hour may be spent leaning on the counter at the LHS just sorting out the options for a given product. The LHS owner is more than happy to steer you to the best item that fits your want.
8- There is always one or two people that will die in the corner of the LHS standing up and no one will notice. They seems to be pernament residents inside the LHS.
9- Anything expensive was kept out of children’s reach. T
Well,we learn a lot by trial and error from scenery to smoothing out a locomotive drive.I believe back then we was more modelers then whiners.If a locomotive went bad we simply fixed it and learn from that.We built locomotive kits that we proudly showed off at the club when it would creep from tie to tie-a great feat considering we had brass wheels and track.[:D]
Above all we was thankful for the great locomotives we had back then.Now surprisingly steam locomotives ran far better then the diesels of that time.
Yes,I miss the old days when rivet counters was far and few between and we actually had fun instead of worrying over how correct or incorrect a locomotive or car was.
Friends I love helping my follow modelers out and will continue to do so as I have done long before the internet.Now please did not take offense but I have seen some simple questions that we would have answered for our selves not to long along.Oh…The questions? How does a (fill the blank) locomotive run? Easy to answer and you’re sure to get the correct answer by test running one at the local hobby shop instead of depending on other’s views and opinions which may be bias because he/she doesn’t like a given brand.
When I started in 1971, I learned from books at the local library, books I ordered, and magazines. I was in Germany and only saw a very little that was American prototype so I mail ordered alot of stuff. I also did a lot of trial and error. I don’t know that it was worse then, just different. When I got back to the U.S. in 1974 I found some hobby shops friendly and some not (guess who did not get my business). Maybe I wasn’t as concerned then over protoype accuracy. I was just having fun building some models and messing around with trains.
Enjoy
Paul
It wasn’t as bad as some people may think. I got back into the hobby around 1983, and relied on magazines, books and catalogs for my information. Walthers catalogs were one of the greatest resources for modelers at the time, as almost anything that you could think about was illustrated in them.
We didn’t have a LHS in my city, the nearest being in my home town about a hundred miles from here. My wife and I still had relatives in this other city, so we visited quite regularly, allowing me to stock up on my hobby needs. My business and pleasure travels took me to other cities, and I was always on the lookout for hobby shops to browse their selections. That was sort of fun, discovering treasures in out of the way places.
My first modeling was freelancing my own road, so anything was possible and I didn’t pay too much attention to the prototype. Later I discovered local prototypes, and did my early modeling from books exclusively. Here in Canada we are fortunate to have the Rail Canada series of books, each specializing in Canada’s railway diesels. With drawings and plans they satisfied my requirements for making my own models. Usually projects were long term affairs, gathering up the materials, decals, detail parts, etc., to start. I would normally have several in different stages, so I always had something to do.
Later with the Internet, I was able to find even more information and help on model building. Everything is just quicker now due to this speed, and not necessariy better.
Been there, done that!
Bob Boudreau
I built and decaled a raft of cars for the DT&I and other railroads based on the pictures on the decal sheet not knowing what the actual car type was and found I had made many errors. Now I know the difference between a 4447, 4740, 4750, 4875 Pullman Standard Hopper along with FMC and Evans Covered Hoppers. Between the Internet and magazines like Mainline Modeler we are getting a wealth of information in order to make us better modelers. Car modeling is now approaching motive power modeling in its complexity and correctness.
Rick
Most modelers seemed to be lone wolves. At least in my experience as I only met a few in my first thirty years or so in the hobby. Back around 1990, when I got back into the hobby, it took me literally a couple years to find other model railroaders in this area. In the old days It was all handled by books and magazines and trial and error. Maybe that’s why building and tinkering and making things do with your own two hands is held in such high esteem in model railroading by the old timers. "Cause if you didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t do it, you didn’t have it – Period!
I read that some of the old timers in the hobby – Linn Westcott and others of his ilk had a round robin, mail group where someone would have a topic and would send it through the mail to the others. Then each would reply and pass that reply along and eventually everyone had a copy. This was like a Yahoo email list except it was through the U.S. mail system! Can you imagine?! I like the internet better as it’s a tad faster…usually. [;)]
“Hence us Lone Wolf Commie Pinko modelers were left to figure out things on our own.”
ROFLMAO !! More than a bit of truth there.
I drove a lot and read a lot and experimented a lot. I bought grass because that was the only way to get some prototypes. You wouldn’t believe the looks I got because I painted them (Horrors!!) and ran them (wailing and gnashing of teeth !!). You can’t imagine my shock when they didn’t all run well. Some were designed as shelf monkeys. So I modifed them or whatever to get them to run good.
Train stores were like gun stores. If you didn’t know everything you didn’t fit in. Back then I had more testosterone running amok, so I got to where I did know more than most of them, in both environments. (Take That !!)
More fun now. Easier to get stuff. Much more relaxed.
About the only difference between now and then (as in 1959 then) that I see is the quantity of contacts and the speed of response to a question.
I purchased my first issue of Model Railroader in February of that year and just started in reading. Simply reading and trying what I could taught me a great deal. In the November and December issues of that year Alan Armitage wrote a two part article on working with styrene. As a 12 year old I didn’t have a lot of disposable income but I did have an interest in trains and I had built plastic models and I did know how to write a polite letter of inquiry. Alan and many others whose articles appeared in those issues responded to my questions and were very helpful with suggestions.
In those few instances when I lived in a town that had a hobby shop I found that more often than not, a polite question usually elicited a helpful response. True there was the occasional pot-bellied-slack-jawed-stogie-sucking-counter-hugger who couldn’t be bothered with a kid/teen-ager but hey, I could spot them easy and avoidance was not a problem.
For me, the biggest problem wasn’t getting help and advice from other modelers, the biggest problem was the general lack of tolerance for my interests as exhibited by my peers. To that end I found the best approach was to never tell any of my peers about my “weird” interests. Fortunately, Mom and Dad encouraged my interests so I never had a problem at home.
One thing I have noticed since my re-entrance to the hobby is that I don’t grab my magazines out of the letter carrier’s hands at the door. In fact, right now, I have 3 months worth of MR and two months of MRN laying on my desk unread. I get my fix on a daily basis reading this and other fourms. I enjoy the conversations, the easy give and take, the ribbing that goes on. It’s like a virtual club.
End of drivel.
Tom
I felt that it was easy enough to keep up with the modeling scene because of the wealth of modeling magazines and books out there at the time (1980s to mid-1990s - course, many of them are still around). It was prototype info that seemed harder to get - I mean in terms of what traffic and industries this spur served from what dates etc. etc. - nowadays its much easier to post questions on message boards or google around than to hunt around libraries or historical societies, or query offical channels (like railroad offices or county officers, who wouldn’t know anyway).
I do miss the ‘all-knowing’ walthers catalog of the period…
Well back then before the net started to catch on I was only 4 or 5, and I thought tyco, bachmann, and lifelike stuff was cool. I had no idea there was a guilford/ MBTA line less than a mile from my house, and I didn’t know the big roads of that day around here were conrail and CSX. I didn’t even see a freight train until I was 7, of all places in Niagra falls, Canada! I had a chessie F7 (which by the way ran awful by what my standards are now), and a santa fe engine, also a cheap F unit. The internet is what got me into MRR’ing seriously at the age of 12, after years of horn hooks, brass track, and those pizza cutter wheels. It tought me the difference between Geeps, I saw several rr’s I had no idea existed, like CSX, NS and Burlington northern.
Sorry for the summary of the past 12 years of my life of trains. I just get carried away…
Well sonny… Way back in the dark ages when I was younger. I’ll tell ya now I used to spend a lot more time workin’ on the pike, and a lot less time readin’ 'bout it on the web… [}:)]
Groups like this on the web are a great help today, and a lot of fun be part of. But I think I was having just as much fun 20 plus years ago as I am now.
Enjoy your trains! [:D]
Plus side: Easy to learn from the greats - we’re sitting here chatting with Bob Bordreau (sorry if I spelled the name wrong - it’s tricky, as is my name) and Joe Fugate.
Would have been tough to chat with Linn Westcott 30 years ago.
Negative side: Too easy to get caught up in the hype of newest and greatest equipment, etc.
20 years ago my Dad and I just built stuff man - we just went for it. Today, I’d probably research a locomotive for weeks on here before purchasing it. I’d also worry that the hood was a scale 6" or whatever too wide.
I also would have actually gotten a lot more MRR’ing done if I wasn’t getting my MRR fix on this website!!! (the first night I found railimages.com cost me several hours of time). Arggghhh!!
As with TV, the internet is good and bad. It allows easy transfer of information - good and worthless. It allows you to become a “mouse potato” very easily. But when you’re working, you could also use it to be extremely productive!
In the end, I prefer reading messages on here over most of the interactions I’ve had with hobby shop snobs over the years.
However, I think shops are aware of this now, and I’ve had some extremely pleasant experiences at shops within the past year or so. One shop even suggested I don’t buy DCC for a very small shelf layout - even though he sold it - suggested I start out small, and sold me a good ol’ trusy MRC power pack. THAT is a good hobby shop!
Another shop said I should start with a cheapo plastic airbrush he had - if I didn’t like airbrushing, I’d only be out $30 (I already have a compressor/regulator for my nailgun). If I liked it, he’d have a nicer one ready to go for me in a couple months.
In summary: My Pre-internet MRR’ing experiences consisted of reading MR (which of course has a very friendly tone) and visiting hobby shops (which seemed extremely snobby to me as a kid - which was wierd because I’d be all excited to go the
I suppose if one wanted to get technical, the Internet started in the Sixties. But the point is moot, because we’re talking about the World Wide Web here, which brings us to the mid-nineties.
Round-robin-letters and small-print special-interest newsletters were used, as mentioned above, in many of the same ways as mentioned above. Heck, I ran across a bundle of that sort of thing in an antique store just this weekend (bought 'em in a moment of weakness, too)–pretty much a small print run magazine, done on spirit mimeograph machine or later on photocopier, with small runs of maybe 20-100 copies.
I got out of model railroading around 1987 when I left for college (before its triumphant return about three years ago.) At that time the main medium I had to learn about model railroading was Model Railroader. I got to the hobby shop once in a while, and generally sat back and listened in on conversations or asked a few questions, and generally was accomodated without too much disdain.
I remember going to one train show. They had some nice stuff but one thing I noticed about the train shows I have gone to in Roseville is that they seem BETTER than the old ones–or maybe I just like seeing old stuff better, or maybe I just have more disposable income to spend now.
Finally, one thing about model railroading in the Seventies and even the early Eighties was that a lot more stores carried model railroad items! I remember finding rolling stock and structure kits for sale at drugstores and hardware stores, and even though most of them were Tyco or Plasticville quality junk, the fact that they were there is significant–these days, you can’t find model railroad items in most toy stores, or even many hobby shops!
Javern, love the pig pic by the way, my son has pigs all over all his trains, his room, everywhere.
I see information quicker, and the hobbyists because of the quantity online friendlier. The rivit counters from the 1970s that hate everything still are around, just older and meaner. Some of them came online others are stuck at the remaining hobby shops counters.
I believe they will kill this hobby. What kid wants to deal with these old frts that just are rude. I don’t care if their layout is “prototypical”. If it isn’t the real train, its a joke in telling me its real. Now in pictures, some of these layouts look real. And the talent to make them is incredible. The track shot in the 2005 Walthers catalog is fantastic. But these old mean frts shoud be teaching kids the how to’s in a fun way so the hobby can grow.
The average age when I started as a kid in the early 70s was 33 according to books I still have. Now the books say 55. As I calculate within 30 years most of these railroad people will be dead. If there are no new blood coming in, who will be buying trains in 2034???
If not for the great folks of all ages on this forum, I would not have returned to trains, and while I am glad I can look, touch and see trains at my LHS, I don’t see any shops surviving in San Diego in the long run. And some will die quicker. I went into one, and the owner couldn’t stand to have kids in their store. Talk about a business cutting its own throat.
Rant off
Tim [:)][C):-)][:-^]