Planning to use Atlas Customline turnouts on the new expansion. Previously I have used only snap switches which have plastic frogs.
What do I need to know about the Customline turnouts which have metal frogs? Do I need to energize them? Seems Atlas sells extra parts necessary for this. Their tech. send me this email which don’t entirely understand.
“The metal frogs on Custom line switches, can be energized by use of the
Atlas bus bar, item # 200001, for the screw, and 200002 for the bus bar.”
Depends on your equipment.
If you have 0-4-0’s critters, or single truck pickup, like some older models, maybe.
See this post:
You don’t HAVE to use the Atlas parts, if you aren’t using the Atlas switch machines. You pretty much can’t solder to the metal used for the frogs, but a 1-72 brass screw can be driven in the existing hole (I didn’t tap mine, and my screws aren’t self-tapping, but the metal is soft enough that they go in.) You can then solder a wire to this to power the frog through whatever means you desire - contacts on a manual switch machine, contacts on a Tortoise, etc.
–Randy
Thanks for the responses…
Ok, so if I understand this,
My Atlas Snap switches have plastic frogs, which obviously are not powered? So, if the Customline #6s have metal frogs, they are still unpowered and it is just that they give the option of powering the frog because they have a hole for a screw to be inserted if desired?
But if I have never had any problem with the unpowered plastic frogs with my locos and the Atlas snap switches, I shouldn’t expect any problems from the equally unpowered but metal #6 Customline
(which I wish to use because the motors and switches will match my existing switch panel) ?
But is the frog in the #6s so appreciably longer that being unpowered might be an issue?
I didn’t even know the #6s had metal frogs until after a year of periodic cleaning when the black paint or whatever the coating was wore off.
I have over 75 turnouts on my layout, some are Peco, most are Atlas and non have powered frogs. I run all diesel, 4 and 6 axle, with no problems. If you’re running older steam or diesels that don’t have all-wheel electrical pickup you might have some stalling, but 99% of all the stuff that’s been made in the last 10 to 15 years shouldn’t have any issues with un-powered frogs.
As noted earlier usually you won’t need the frog powered unless you have an old loco with single truck pickup or even one of those tiny 4 wheel switchers. The option is there if needed though.
As to the size difference of the frogs, the number 6 frog including the insulator is twice as long. Here’s a couple of pics with a number 4 and 6 side by side.
Yes, sounds like you got it. I would agree with all those statements.
On my previous layout I didn;t bother powering the frogs of either the #4’s I used for sidings and the #6’s I used for the main - not really sure why I’m bothering to wire them this time, just in case I guess. I didn’t have any problem operating any of my equipment, even at nice slow speeds, with the unpowered frogs, but all my locos are recent models with 8 wheel pickup on the diesels and the steam locos I ran (BLI and PCM) pick up on botht he locoa nd tender. I never had problems with stalling or sound cutting out on the sound units. I do have one loco that probably will require powered frogs, that is a Bachmann 44 tonner, but it will generally be limited to one area of the layout.
–Randy
I use the Atlas turnouts with the metal frogs. They have a small lug to attach power wires with screws. I used single conductor 22 gauge wire to power them. Right now, I energize them them double pole single throw toggle switches so they have the correct polarity. When I install the Tortoises, they’ll be wired to do that automatically.
A year ago, in a similar thread, I wrote:
Interesting - I’ve been accumulating Atlas #505/506 Super-Track #6 turnouts, so I took one out of the package, and I don’t see a hole for a screw or anything like that, but there is a shiny metal bar about 29mm (1.15") long and 2mm (1/16"+) wide on the underside, flush with the tie-strip plastic. So is that “bus bar” now built-in?
To check it out, I took my trusty Weller soldering gun and some 60/40 rosin-core solder, and the bus bar is easily wetted by the solder, so that one can just solder a wire directly to it. To me, a good soldered joint is a better deal electrically than a short micro-screw, over the long term.
So, is this something new with the Super-Track turnouts only, or has Atlas recently changed their design ?
The Super-Track turnouts have always had the bad leading over to the outside tie edge. They came out before code 83 Custom-Line turnouts were available. The Custom-Line turnouts have, for many years now (can’t say ‘forever’ because they’ve gone through some revisions) had the hole next tot he frog, in both code 100 and code 83, to work with the bus bars and screws that come with the Snap-Relay to provide frog power. It’s nothing new, been that ways 20+ years now. ANd there’s nothing inherently unreliable about a brass screw in the hole with the wire soldered to it - it will never vibrate out or anything, a 1-72 screw is a very tight fit. You CAN buy the bus bar part that comes with the Snap-Relay seperately, forget the part number but you can find it on the Atlas web site. Those have a nut and bolt to attach to the hole in the frog - if it’s a brass screw, a touch of solder would keep it from ever unscrewing, but there will be a visible screw head. I drive my brass screw up from underneath so all it really means is the former hole is now solid, no screw head is visible.
–Randy
Here’s a pic showing “The Hole” It’s very easy to miss if you’re not looking for it.
Arrow points to it.
Well now I am getting a little confused. So the Customline has a metal frog that does not necessarily need to be energized, but if I want to do so, Atlas sells a bar and screw assembly to attach a wire to.
And to what do I attach the other end of the wire to energize it…it would be a toggle switch wired to the correct half of the bus wire or simply to the adjacent track, right? or does Atlas or anyone sell an automatic device that changes the current to the right polarity as the switch is operated.? Or should I just forget the energizing bit as I am told most locos will have no problem with the turnouts.
I hope to get this clearly understood because I am about to drop a pile of $ on two dozen of these turnouts.
Thanks for the info.
Hi cisco.
I’ll use DC to describe but DCC is the same idea:
Under normal circumstances you don’t want the frog energized unless it is wired correctly. The reason is this. When the loco passes through an energized the frog side would be positive in a given direction. When a loco passed going straight the RIGHT side wheels would get power from the frog
If the same loco entered the turnout and it was set to turn, the LEFT Side would Contact the frog since it’s turning. The frog would still be positive but the other wheels of the truck and the second truck are still touching the negative side. This causes a short. This is why the metal frog is isolated and not powered. It’s usually ok since modern equipment have 2 truck pickup or even 3 wheel trucks and can do without the temporary loss.
If you need power on the frog for small loco, loco’s with 1 truck pickp, or don’t want to see passenger car lights flash while crossing you can power them bu
If you use Tortoise switch machines, you use one set of the contacts provided to connect the proper polarity (or phase with DCC) to the frog. With Atlas, you can parallel the Snap-Relay with the switch motor which provides similar switched contacts. With manual throws, you can use the Caboose ones with contacts, although they are grossly oversized, or one of the several undertable manual actuatores like Bluepoint or Fast Tracks Bullfrog. Or automate it regardless of how you actually move the turnout using the Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer.
–Randy