I am beginning construction of a 600 foot garden layout early next year. I will be using 45mm rail, probably supplied by Aristo-Craft. However, I cannot decide on the best scale of locomotive / rolling stock.
I wi***o maintain a relative scale value to the 45mm rail. Does any experienced modeller have any recommendations?
I live outside the US - further south, in Honduras - so good metal / plastic rolling stock would be ideal. I do not have any wet weather problems.
If you intend to model standard gauge trains 1:29 would be a good choice since there is more available in this scale. However, 1:32 is the “correct” scale for 45mm track.
If you intend to model a 3 foot gauge railroad 1:20.3 is the “correct” scale for 45mm track.
You do have a third choice…7/8 scale on 45mm track representing 2 foot gauge trains and tramways. ( www.hometown.aol.com/jbsaxton/mymodels.html-30k ) ( www.hometown.aol.com/jbsaxton/manifesto.html-17k )
I hope this helps…OLD DAD[:)]
OLD DAD:
Hmmm. I’ve gotten into this debate before on the 3’ narrow gauge issue and admit to remaining a bit confused, but since you brought it up, I’d like to re-visit it if we can.
Yes, 3’ does MATHEMATICALLY calculate out to 1:20.3 on 45mm track. The problem I found however is that some prototype 3’ Narrow Gauge RR’s were not actually 3’ truly. The term came to be used generically, (much as “G” scale is tossed around today,) but actually covered a range of narrow gauge RR’s from about 2.8’ up to 3.5’.
Since I model the C&S Narrow Gauge, the loco which is a top of the line one built by a very reputable manufacturer, it is actually a 1:22.5 which is SUPPOSED to be true scale for IT’S prototype. This would put the track width at down around 2.8’ (+/-) and not really 3’. I have not actually been able to confirm that the true C&S WAS under 3’, but I also know Aster would not build a Loco described as “True to Scale” if it were not so.
This whole 1:22.5 vs. 1:20.3 issue has plagued me for almost 4 years now. Just on principle alone because the truth is, I’m NOT actually THAT fussy. (My consist is actually 1:24 and I’m quite pleased with it.)
It’s merely an issue I’d finally like to get clear on for the sake of THAT alone. There are several Narrow Gauge modelers that also consider 1:22.5 to be the true Narrow Gauge scale since a lot of so-called 3’ Narrow Gauge RR’s were not REALLY exactly 3’ feet at all.
Thoughts…???
Regards,
LDH
Dear Mr. Vettbass,
Always good to hear from you. Allow me to take a stabe at this confusing issue.
When a railroad is said to be 3’ gauge it means that the rails are 3’ apart, 36"…not 3’2" or 34.5" or 24" or any other gauge. 3’ is 3’. A railroad that has a gauge of 3’2" is refered to as a 3’2" or 38" gauge railroad NOT a 3’ gauge railroad. The same holds true for ALL other gauges, there is no such thing as a so-called 3’ gauge railroad…its 3’ or its not 3’. So 1:20.3 on 45mm track is the correct scale for a 3’ gauge railroad. However, some countries use the metric system of measurement so 1:22.5 on 45mm track is correct for a meter gauge railroad. Remember, LGB is in Germany and they use metric.
As far as the 1:22.5 vs. 1:20.3 issue goes, these are two different scales, as different as “N” scale and “O” scale they both just happen to run on 45mm track and this fact has nothing to do with anything.
7/8 scale also runs on 45mm track and is the correct scale for a 2’ gauge railroad or tramway.
Clear as mud or did any of this help…OLD DAD
True, except that this is large scale which means throw your rulers out. Especially if your in the garden.
There is so much scale variation at this guage the best I can offer is to choose one “thought” camp and go with it. By thought camp i mean camp 1, the “mainliners” doing standard gauge class 1 type RRing, and camp 2, the “narrow gaugers”.
I am a narrow gauger, I chose 1:24 scale, got a 1/2" scale and thats all i use. If I pick something up that was origanally 1:22.5, NOW its 1:24, I will ignore any scale descrepencies that might arise.
I HAVE to do this or else i would have to scratchbuild everything. That i refuse to do. I am no rivit counter, i want to have fun doing this hobby so I will buy “narrow guage” thats appropriate to my line and use it as is. Even "mainliners
Thank you for replies. I shall check out the availability of 1:29 scale locos and rolling stock. It certainly is a confusing issue for a beginner to garden railways. I have completed previous OO and O scale modelling projects, but everything is known to the nearest mm in those scale ranges!
Alan and Mina.
vsmith
I think your confusing GAUGE with SCALE.
GAUGE is the distance between the inside face of one rail to the inside face of the opposite rail. SCALE is the relationship between a model and its full size counterpart…such as-----1/2" = 1’ or 7/8" = 1’ get the idea.
I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m talking down to you…thats not my intention.
As far as throwing the rulers away goes…not a good idea IF you care about building a “scale” model of a railroad.
If your happy running equipment of verious scales then that is what you should do…this is a hobby not test so you shouldn’t have to prove your self to anyone.
Many different SCALES can run on the same GAUGE track.
Yet another confusing response from OLD DAD
OLD DAD:
Yeah. I got to doing some more homework on the issue right after I posted the question to you. 1:22.5 DOES work out for Meter Gauge as opposed to true 3’.
Aster, which is a Japanese Manufacturer PROBABLY (don’t want to ASSUME too much here), but PROBABLY… chose the metric system to use since it’s what THEY do. All the hundreds of little nuts and bolts that come with this kit are metric. Even to the fractional mm level. Hence the 1:22.5 for Narrow Gauge.
Not sure the Japanese know what 3 “feet” is. 
(No offense.)
vsmith:
I do have to go with you on the concept you state here. As I’ve said before, I’m not as fussy as an indoor HO or N scaler. Can’t afford to be unless like you say, I plan LOT of scratch building.
I’d be willing to bet that a regular indoor fussy person would not be able to tell that the Delton 1:24 Consist I run behind the 1:22.5 Narrow Gauge loco is actually what it is without having KNOWN this ahead of time. They are SOOOOO close.
I’ll bet a “true” 3’ foot narow gauger that usually runs 1:20.3 wouldn’t care either, but I could be wrong. The bloody thing looks really good to me.
I’ll get some photos ready soon. Even if I have to do it on my dining room table.
I wonder if it might be of more help to alanmina to concentrate on non-partisan issues, regarding the nomenclature of narrow gauge…?
The "best " scale is a subjective matter, and can never be anything more than an opinion.
The most popular world-wide scale for 45mm gauge track is probably 22.5 : 1, the LGB scale, as LGB is the largest manufacturer, and active in the most continents / countries. Perhaps it would be good to know alanmina’s preference in terms of what type of equipment he wishes to run…North American narrow gauge, South American…European ??..Old time steam ?
Modern diesel ?
LGB might well be the easiest make to obtain in Central America.
It is probably also is the most durable & rugged equipment made, as far as outdoor weather tolerance.
regards,
Mike
Sorry OLD DAD I am not confusing scale with guage.
Yes I know what Gauge, 45mm, is…and
Yes. I know what Scale is…I’ve around this hobby for over 30 years.
I said I chose 1/2" SCALE ( 1/24 if you will), meaning my trains are supposed to be 1/2 inch to the foot in scale, which means that my track SCALE is 3’-6" gauge.
I chose this since most aftermarket suppiers of doll house supplies, die cast autos, plastic models, etc are readily avalible at 1/24 for use. Try finding a 1:20.3 auto and you’ll know why I chose 1/2". Its a compromise that works for me, my line is based on industrial tram lines, not a major narrow gauge carrier like C&Sor DRGW. So I can make it any scale guage that I wanted with out running into the rivit counters dilema in large scale. (LGB’s mogul looks great but it scales to 3’-3" gauge at 1:22.5 scale, that alone will drive some rivit counter insane.)
When I said “thow away your scales” I meant you have to be able to adjust to what products are on the market. CHOSE one mindset, either Mainline Standard Guage OR, Narrow Gauge. but DONT mix, some do, tha
robmik:
I’m not sure we’re bein partisan here so much as pointing out the foibles in 45mm gauge.
As you say, the “best” scale IS indeed subjective.
I think what we are all saying here is that picking any ONE “SCALE” in 45mm gauge and staying “pure” to it is extremely difficult unless you run a very limited layout, or are able to do a lot of scratch building.
It just seems to me that 45mm supports so MANY scales that it’s hard to find the materials to build a truly complicated layout (like the HO and N-ers do), and keep EVERYTHING to the scale you choose in the purest way.
For me, it’s impossible. If it’s close, it’s OK.
After much research I was able to locate a finely detailed model of the ORIGINAL Rolls Royce Silver Ghost in 1:22.5. “Pure” for my loco scale. It set me back $122, but it IS true period for my layour also. I cannot afford to buy very many autos at this rate. The 1:24 Model T’s etc. at $15-30 bucks are going to have to do.
I think all this might BE helpful to alanmina if only to inform what he is getting into. What he chooses to do with it is up to him.
robmik.
My preference would be to construct a British Rail (British Expat!) garden layout - but shipping in products to Honduras from the UK can prove difficult and expensive. I do prefer kit building, but to date have not found anything reasonably priced for outdoor use at either 1:29, 1:24 or 1:22.5. (below $600 for a scale locomotive for example).
The North American market is nearer and, to be honest, there is far more variety of products and suppliers than the UK. Prices are also considerably less!
I will not be starting construction till later in the New Year so I am not limited to choice of preference as yet, though it will be steam era based. I will certainly check out LGB Products and suppliers.
While sorting through gauge lists I kept coming across references to “gauge 1” and “gauge one” (this from the UK). Are they both 45mm? The UK reference seems to point to 36mm - still more confusion!
Correct me here if I’m wrong but, Gauge 1 (one) —IS---- 45mm in the old British definition. (Now called “G” Gauge by us “yanks”).
I believe 36mm is called Gauge “0” by these UK folks. Or is it “00”? I DO get the “Old Brits” and the Lionel folks confused.
Below is a link that disputes this:
http://www.thestorefinder.com/rr/library/gauge-FAQ.html
since IT refers to Gauge “0” as ------
Then we have THIS:
http://thehobbybarn.com/resources/measure/trains.html
which puts Gauge “0” at 35mm. And further goes on to explain the difference between using the Roman Numeral “I” and the Arabic “1” to depict with Roman “I” being 45mm and Arabic “1” being 48mm!!!
I HOPE this confuses ALL of you to a very LARGE degree (it does me) since the above sites are “supposed” to be “experts” on the issue.
I decided to throw my hands up long ago when I got into this hobby as to nit-picking “scale” issues.
I EYEBALL everything. If it looks good I RUN with it.
Peace.
Hi, This is my first post. I have a similar situation as Alanmina save that I live in the US (Idaho) and I want to model in a post war late 1940s time frame, not narrow gage. I understand gage v scale but like Alanmina I am totally confused about what scale to select. My concern is, I suppose, what scale has the most available rolling stock and accessories. In addition, how obvious are differences in scale. Is 1:29 obviously different from 1:32 or 1:22 v 1:24? There may come a day when I scratch build but kits are for me now. Any further opinions for this neophyte? Thankx
I think Tim is close when making these decisions. First what do you want to run, time frame, etc. then see what is on the market that fits the time frame. Then go with it no matter what the scale or gauge. I know its “feelings” but if you like that engine with those cars then buy and go have fun… The first large scale engine I saw I said ,no way. Couple years later I saw my 2nd LS engine and said, WOOOW this is COOL. Now is this over thinking the issue or what[;)]
TimT welcome to the forum, see my post above about the scale issue.
It sound like you’ve already aswered most of your own question when you said “no narrow Gauge”. Well that by my definitions would put you in the “Mainliner” school and you should be looking for 1:29 or 1:32 scale items. These are most avalible from USA, Arist Craft, Marklin, and some LGB stuff. Its very easy to tell the differences between the narrow gauge stuff and the standard guage stuff so I dont think you’ll be too confused for long. Anything scale wise 1:24 or larger is ment to represent narrow gauge equipemnt, so dont even look for those.
The only exception to this is Bachmann’s 4-6-0 annie, which as a type of engine, was so common ( and Bachmann’s scale is so vague) it looks perfectly fine as a standard guage ten wheeler when hauling standard gauge cars, and it fits your 1940’s time frame.
Dont be put off by the 1:29/1:32 scale differences, they are ment to be the same thing, standard gauge model trains. Its just that some makers decided that at 1:32 the trains looked a little odd on the LGB 45 mm track (the rails looked huge) so they bumped up the scale a bit to 1:29 to help the trains out visually. they “looked better” buffed up at 1:29 on the big high rail LGB type track (this is in the days before “scale” rail was readily avalible). The scale difference between a 1:29 engine with 1:32 cars behind it is going to be invisable. So go for it.
Vic,
The 1:29 vs 1:32 scale difference is quite noticeable. Anyone needs any illustrations have a look on MLS where you’ll find comparison pictures of the 1:32 MTH UP caboose with a whole slew of other stuff in 1:29 etc.
Trust me you don’t need a close up to see the difference. 10% may be chicken-feed in one dimension, but it is considerable when applied to volume in all three dimensions.
For those interested in how 1:29 came about (at least for Aristo) check out Lewis Polk’s write-up on the Aristo forum.
It has all to do with the WOW factor and being reasonably compatible (size wise) with what LGB already offered. The track with Code 332 rail looks as ridiculously oversize at 1:29 as it does in 1:32. That’s precisely why Märklin uses Code197 for their 1:32 scale items.
BTW interestingly enough many 1:20.3 modelers have an affinity for Code215 and Code250 rail.
As far as the 10% being invisible, have you ever visually compared a LGB F7 to an Aristo FA or for that matter an USA F3??
You won’t need the above table to see the glaring differences, just doodle on down to your friendly LS dealer and have a look.
Alan,
Welcome to the wacky and wonderful world of Large Scale.
Much of the confusion in LS stems from somewhat “lose” standards. It all depends if you go with NMRA, G1MRA or NEM.
At least in NEM Standards the matter is straight forward
Two scales use 45mm track gauge
a) 1:32 to represent 1435mm track gauge
b) 1:22.5 to represent 1000mm track gauge (Narrow Gauge)
So it is just as close as ever (give or take a millimeter) just a matter if you like to follow one Standard or the other Standard.[8)][8)]
I personally like to follow Standards which are logical, consistent (don’t mix Metric with Imperial) and don’t have me scratching my head. If I want head-scratching I follow world politics.[:o)][:o)][;)][:D][:D]
This may be true, but its never been THAT noticable to me. Then again I am doing that Narrow Gauge thing, and not standard guage where something like that might be more noticable to someone. So I’ll defer to the standard guage experts here.
I still say GO FOR IT, worry about this scale crapola AFTER your rolling trains…
Vic,
I’m doing that NG thing as well (Meter Gauge), and it has been a big surprise to some just how much difference the 10% make. You mix 1:22.5 with 1:24 and it is “whoa” time.
LS standard stuff for me is more a “professional” interest; I look, compare and make mental notes when I hit the hobby shops. Gotta know what could run on any given layout I design.