Rather than repair and expand the now decrepit Port Authority 8th Avenue and 41st St. Bus Terminal and the one in Washington Heights, both should be moved to New Jersey. Not the “7”, but the “L”, the 14th Street Canarsie Line, should be extended to Sacaucus Station on the NEC with a stop at a new large efficient bus terminal to replace the one on 8th Avenue. The “A” should cross the GW Bridge to a new terminal replacing the one in Washington Heights, with the C taking over the 207th Street service.
\The followingg email message prompts this recommendation:
In late 1950 the Port Authority opened the bus terminal to the public for inspection prior to its opening. My father and I went there and viewed what appeared to be a magnificent facility. The terminal was constructed west of Eighth Avenue as the numerous commuter motor coach operations were concentrated between Seventh Avenues and construction of the terminal would have left them no place to load, unload and stage their vehicles (in fact the last of these operations closed about 1980). In addition the New York Herald Tribune newspaper had its offices and printing plant in the more ideal location mid block between Seventh and Eighth Avenues, and 40th and 41st streets. The long distance motor coach services, except Greyhound, as well as some suburban service used the bus terminal in the basement of the Hotel Dixie.
When the Bus Terminal opened the carriers slowly moved their operations into the building, and the passengers had both bad and good things to say about it. They were very satisfied with available services: an upscale super market, Whelan drug store, a bank, news stands, a book store, and several food stores to slack their thirst and appetite. The Eighth Avenue IND subway was convenient for downtown travel, but uptown
Why not keep it in the family? If the Port Authority were to build a new bus terminal anywhere they should extend the PATH train to it. In NJ it could be an extension from 33rd St then loop down the Meadows to Journal Sq. area and/or maybe use one of the abandoned rights of way into Newark and the Oranges. PATH already has cross Hudson privileges and charters and rights, etc. so there would be no state infringements, et. al, as would accompany New York State’s MTA invading NJ. Utilizing PATH"s existence could probably cut 10 years and 100’s of billions of dollars from the project while opening up NYC to more people.
If that is easier to do, by all means. But consider this:
The “L” is almost a mile closer to the Hudson River, is pointed in the right direction, involving less demolition of buidings (perhaps none, just tearing up 14th Street from between 8th and 9th Aves to 12th), is already constructed under all the north-south subways it crosses, and uses full-width cars and thus can have more people seated and a far greater capacity per train than a PATH train (almost double), and has the capacity to easily handle the extra patronage. I would expect the number of passengers coming from NJ to outnumber those from Brooklyn, with a 2-minute headway during rush hours, and every other train using the pocket track east of Myrtle Avenue to reverse there, or perhaps one out of three, another one out of three short turning at Atlantic Avenue. with Janius, E55th, and Canarsie-Rockaway Ave getting 6 minute service.
I am unsure at this point, memory-wise, whether the “L” ever had platforms extended from 500 to 620 feet for 10-car trains, instead of eight (seven of the original BMT “steels” or two Multi’s or D-types.). If not done already, might be done at the same time.
The big problem with building PATH west (or east, to GCT, as originally envisioned) is going underneath existing subways. And the curve at Herald Square would be mighty difficult because oof existing subways, station facilities, and buildings.
Doesn’t have to come from Herald Sq. Can cut off the line anyplace. My concern and proposition is multi fold. First and foremost the legal hassles of the State of NY entities entering upon the State of NJ. Since the Port Authority already has that right, is the owner and operator of PATH, it is a natural that PATH would be most logical and easiest entity to cross the Hudson to access either a new bus terminal or to existing venues like Secaucus Jct. Second, therefore, would be the ability to use abandoned rights of way and vacant lands, to complete a circle at or near Journal Sq. or to reach further into the near NJ suburbs. Use of PATH would reach more people who need to get to NYC and the east side than NY people who need to get to the west side. or NJ. The 7 or even the L train would not be available to as many people nor be able to expand into NJ. Unless NY annexes Hudson, Bergen, and Essex Counties of NJ. As a former NJite and now upstate NY’er…I’d be opposed to that!
The Bus Terminal MUST be in Manhattan. It should be moved to the space directly above the tunnel portals, further, during Rush Hour, ONLY busses should be permitted to use the tunnel.
You want to get the beese into the terminal without recourse to city streets. Moving sidewalks, city beese, trams, and taxis should be able to move peeps (geese) to their usual connections.
LION rides bust from Stroudsburg to PABT : It is a long enough commute without having to make an extra transfer point. Watch the tunnel from the Joisey side. That bus lane is filled from end to end with moving beese for hours. A constant stream of them
Should be able to do the wrok for FREE, since the air rights will provide all of the income stream needed to build and keep this operation going. And does not the new (7) Lion go right to this point anyway.
Ah, Port Authority! Many memories of that place in the 70s when I took the bus that left at 11:00 pm that went directly to the piers at the Norfolk navy base where I was stationed at the time. There sure wasn’t anything nice about that place back then and I haven’t been back since. I sure recall the garish pimpmobiles stationed outside “Why, you from Milwaukee, I’m from Milwaukee too, get your fine butt on in here!”
I do like the idea of having the terminal in New Jersey on an extended Number 7 line, that sounds like a pretty good idea, having it adjacent to the Turnpike. First extend the Number 7. Not that I’m ever going to ride a grey dog ever again.
The “L” connects with all existing north-south rapid transit lines, with stations at 8th, 6th, 4th (Union Sq.) 3rd, and 1st Avenues. And the Atlantic Avenue station is right over LIRR’s East New York station.
Rail tunnels are less expensive to build than highway tunnels and can handle more passengers per lane, even with bus use.
Ok. The “L” with it. The “L” train should be transferred to the PA and somehow made an appendage of PATH. But NJ is where the users of the service are and not NYC or LI. The most expedient course will be through the PA and not the courts; talk about doing in in a few years rather than several decades.
I’m with Henry on this one. PATH is the established agency for this. Their name is Trans Hudson. However, like Lion says, there are a lot of bus commuters who will not want to give up their one-seat ride, and will probably make enough noise to kill any idea of moving the terminal.
Actually a move to NJ is intriguing but it does not take into account buses coming from points east of the Hudson or LI… LIght rail feeder lines in NJ to NJT lines may work to counter the bus or it may enhance it. And, yes, I have to and have opened the idea that PATH must control the trans Hudson rapid transit but only if NJT cannot expand to do so. I just think that the PA and their PATH is in place and will avert a lot of arguing and court battles and shorten the talking time to implementation.
My question is this: where are the busses coming from, and would a full scale PATH expansion across the area better serve the commuting needs as the area grows?
Metro North already works with NJT on two services, and there is no reason why the TA cannot also work with NJT or PATH. That would be necessary for the GWBridge project as well. (I assumed that it is well-known that two of the lanes were originally designed for rapid transit and have the structure in place.) The 14th St. tunneling and tracks and physical plant west of 8th Avenue could be NJT or PATH, new car equipment would be half NJT or PATH-owned and half TA-owned but be identacle. The equipment would be new, would revert to the original R-1 through R-10 IND seat arrangements, not the bowling alleys of the current new stuff. If giving up a one-seat ride means not having any more delays, and traveiling through only safe and well-kept facilities, I think manyy commuters will prefer the new arrangement.
If it were PATH and not NJT, this one successful service might lead to real consideration of intergration of PATH with the A division IRT with No.6 train running past City Hall to provide the World Trade Center service to New Jersey Of course, as I have pointed out on other theads. this will require widening of belt-rail level clearances on the affected IRT lines, but that is doable.
My guess…and guess only…is that the single majority of bus passengers at PAT are to and from west of Hudson commuters mostly from NJ but also from Orange and Rockland Counties of NY and from areas of Pennsylvania east of Scranton-Wilkes Barre. Next would be intercity and regional buses then Westchester and Putnam counties NY, LI, and western CT. So as for long distance/inter city buses, I would suggest they keep to the present PAT along with the east of Hudson commuters. Others west of the Hudson to a new terminal in the Meadows as close to NJT’s Secaucus Jct. as possible with new rapid transit (PATH oriented) service. East of Hudson commuters maybe in need of a new bus terminal, too, perhaps in LIC with 7 train and ferry services to Manhattan or in the Bronx with express MTA subway connections from near Yankee Stadium. Another important project has to be a passenger rail or transit tunnel from Staten Island to reach MTA in Brooklyn or continuation to Manhattan (SIRR to lower Manhattan?).
Imagine the Jersey bus terminal really laid out for the passengers’ benefit. An arrivals concourse and a departure concours, both lined on one side with bus bays, the departure concourse being also the platform for arriving trains from NY, and arrivals concourse being the departure platform for trains to New York. Several spaced overbridges with escalators up and down on both sides allow people from incoming buses to go to Secaucus, and the reverse also. Then, in New York, recall that the “L” (and only the “L”) has very convenient interchage with all north-sourth subway lined, all just one floor up from the specific L-line platform – so for many it will be more convenient, not less, than a one-seat ride to the Port Authority.
Also, transportation planners generally wish to make efficient use of assets. When the A went to Lefferts and eliminated the “13” multi rush hour trains from 8th and 14th (that switched from the Canarsie tracks to the Fulton El tracks at Atlantic Ave. Sta.), a good third of the 14th Street line’s business went to the A train, and so the line, modern wtih automatic operation, is probably the most underutilized lines in Manhattan, used more only than the Franklin Avenue shuttle and the “G”. PATH would do well in sharing the operation of this line with the TA, because what Henry and others are asking of PATH is really a whole new line, since both the WTC and Herald Square lines are near capacity now, and will be at capacity after the extension to Newark Airport starts operating.
Running north and then west from Herald Square simply cannot be done without major demolitions of important buildings and a very radical and difficult reconstruction of the whole Herald Square subway complex.
We talk NJ. All well and good. But what happens to east of Hudson and LI bus services? And long distance/inter city buses? Still only the PABT? or new terminal someplace else, too?
My preference would be to devote part of the new Amtrak terminal to them, and have the costs shared in operating that terminal. Altogether, they are probably no more than 10% of the traffic now at PABT.