I’ve been back in the hobby now for about 6 months and am a fairly regular reader of these forums. One topic that keeps popping up is whether the hobby has gotten more expensive and, if so, whether this is driving people away.
One thought I have had is that many people are turned off from the hobby because of what they view as the impossible standards that the community seems to have set. I’ve detected in many places an attitude that says “a layout must have DCC, sound, be prototypically accurate with all the right equipment, buildings, etc.”
A question I would pose to those who have been involved in the hobby longer than I have is whether this attitude has gotten worse over time. For example, I recently bought two books on realistic model railroad design: one by John Armstrong (originally published in ~1960) and one by Tony Koester (published recently). I was struck by how different their attitudes were. Armstrong had a very relaxed view of how realistic your layout had to be while Koester repeatedly disparaged layouts that didn’t live up to a certain high standard of quality/accuracy.
Anyway, my point is that there has been a lot of handwringing in this forum about the hobby becoming too expensive. However, I think that argument only covers part of the problem. If the standards are too high for the average hobbyist to meet in terms of their resources of time, talent and money, then the hobby won’t attract and keep new people. Thoughts?
People will be people, and I think snobbery is a constant. However, I think you might detect it more in a place like this because of the anonymous nature of forums. Some people will be snobs to your face, but many more tend to be snobs through words.
Then there is always the general psychological profile of model railroaders. Do we tend to be on the “Napoleon” side because we like to make and run our own worlds, or perhaps we tend to have low self esteem and are overcompensating through criticizing others? Someone could probably write a book on this.
Hmmmmm. Very interesting point. I’ve been doing the MRR thing since High School (class of 1982) and running model trains since before I can remember. I think there is something to be said about your thought, but then it needs to be tempered a bit. Yes, the bar seems to be set higher today in terms of detailed models, operations, train control, accuracy of models etc. But on the other hand, given the increase of what is available any level is more easily attained now then back then.
Grab irons on an engine were close to unheard of back in the 60’s for the average modeler. Later - articles were written describing how to delete the cast on grabs and replace with wire detail parts. Athearn went so far as to mold dimples (I think) on the inside of some engine models to facilitate that. Now, separate grabs are standard on models such as Kato, Stewart, P2K etc. We’ve come to expect such details and rightly or wrongly deride models without them.
We can do the same thing with train control. Back in the 60’s - MRC power packs regulated speed with a reostat (sp?). If you wanted slow train control - the magazines had (at least by the 70’s) articles on how to make your own transistor trottle. You had to solder individual transistors, resistors etc together. Back in the 70’s I saved my Christmas, birthday and allowance money for months to buy a MRC Controlmaster X (I forget the exact number). Cost me $40.00 I think. For that much in today’s money, a DCC system is doable (Although not top of line). With the widespread availability of DCC - as well as the simplification of installation and programming (not to mention compatability) we’ve come to the point of expecting such things.
The same is true for rolling stock, scenery, etc etc etc. Because higher levels are attainable today than yesterday at the same expenditure of effort, I think folks are expecting higher levels.
I think this is human nature. Remember when air conditioning in an automobile was an o
I think as time goes by, the standards for most hobbies have increased. In the sensationally charged world we live in, it takes more to satisfy most folks. Hobbies are getting more sophisticated and expensive. This is true of model railroading as well. Personally, I’m glad to see advancements like DCC, sound, super detailed off-the-shelf locos and such. They’ve increased the realism and enjoyment of the hobby for many.
I do sense the attitude you’re referring to though. Hopefully it will not drown out the casual model railroader. Your observation is why I’ve posted polls about how big layouts are and if they are strictly prototypical or not. It sounds to me like the prevailing attitude here is that guys are having fun with the hobby at their own standards level which is as it should be.
Although you do find MRR snobs (mostly online where they can be somewhat anonomys), I think that’s the excpetion. In general most people in the hobby are very nice and you will find this out if you ever go to a convention.
In fact, some of the nicest people in the world are in this hobby … that’s been my experience after nearly 40 years of doing model trains.
Over the years my tastes have gotten more sophisticated, and I recognize for me to get the most enjoyment out of the hobby, I prefer prototype-based modeling that’s era and place specific.
Ironically, I think we would attact the most new modelers to the hobby if we promoted more fantasy-based modeling … ala the Polar Express or Harry Potter’s Hogwart Express. There’s even a place for Lord of the Rings model railroading. It’s not my cup of tea, but it could be the way to keep the basic hobby rejuvenated.
I am a snob about modeling my fanticies. This include time warps, line mixing and space travel. My Hiawatha steamer loves to pull its Zephyr coach across my 1880’s trestle from Nothern Minnesota to Arizona mountains to visit the mine where we get slabs of agate large enough for counter tops.
There ia another thread about MR magazine becoming too basic. This is the tip of the snob iceberg. Once we feel we’ve learned it all we want only our own egos fed.
Every “hobby” that I’ve been involved in has the same problem. MR mag has to walk the line between attracting new people and keeping seasoned modelers happy.
If you enjoy trains and set them up occasionally or you spend your life in the basement, you should do it because it 's what you enjoy that counts. Not what someone else thinks you should enjoy.
Unsolicited advice beginning with " I would have done this instead…" is the sure sign you are in the presence of a possible snob.
I think several things have happened over the years since I got into this hobby in December 1971:
The quality of models and level of detail that is available has increased considerably - though it does cost more. This in turn means that many of us are less satisfied with the low cost lines such as Athearn - we want separate grab irons instead of molded on ones.
The increase in high quality RTR (or near RTR) components - track, engines, cars, etc. has made larger layouts a possibility in a shorter amount of time.
Resin kits and short run plastic “brass” have allowed an increased emphasis on realism. It’s no longer sufficient to have a steam engine decorated for Santa Fe if the model is based on a B&O prototype.
These things together have allowed the hobby to shift emphasis from building to operations and at higher overall level of detail and quality of detail. So, yes the bar is higher. And yes it is a problem for those who don’t have the financial resources. You can still build a pretty nice layout for not a lot of money, but will you be satisfied with it compared to the museum quality models that are available, but you can’t afford?
And you’re right the about the operations snobbery also. John Armstrong explained how the railroad did things and showed you how you do some of those things on your layout. Tony Koester says you have to have x, y, and z or your railroad doesn’t measure up.
But if you ignore all that you can still have a lot of fun in this hobby. To paraphrase the water rat from the Wind in the Willows - there is nothing as wonderful as messing about with trains.
Part of the change in attitude is, perhaps, due to technology. Other hobbies have changed even more radically–thirty years ago, “computer games” meant either a text-based adventure game on a primitive home PC or a blocky “Pong” game, replaced by the then-mindblowing 4-bit graphics of the Atari 2600. Compare ADVENT.EXE to DOOM 3 and you’ll see how far computer games have come in that time–then the difference in model railroading doesn’t seem so great!
Part of it is more intimidation perceived rather than expressed: I really don’t see many posts saying “Your model railroad is NO GOOD if you don’t have components X Y and Z”, but I think when they read posts from folks who say “I do X Y and Z and my model railroad is cool” they might get intimidated and assume that if you don’t do it that way, you aren’t a real model railroader.
Another factor is, perhaps, frustration at the different ways that people perceive hobbies. I’m not an old, old hobbyist but I have been around long enough to be very familiar with the idea of making things from scratch.
When someone comes to the forum and asks for a cheap, easy way to achieve spectacular results, very often there isn’t an answer–either you can spend a lot of money, do a lot of work, or have a less-spectacular layout.
There’s nothing wrong with spending money, doing work or having a less-spectacular layout–but for folks who want everything NOW, it can be a hard pill to swallow to encounter a hobby based on ideas like craftsmanship and attention to detail.
People are becoming more used to paying people to do stuff for their entertainment than doing it themselves–people these days watch sports instead of playing them, listen to music instead of making their own, etcetera. Craft-based hobbies are somewhat still around, but they aren’t as widespread or as popular. People have learned to assume that only Special People can do these things. If you can’t hit baseballs like Mark McGwire, if you can’t play guitar
There is always a level of vehemence (forceful passion) among a “strata” of just about any endeavor. Some of you may have seen this in a irate music conductor when things aren’t perfect. Maybe a tirade coming from a drama coach over “mouthed” lines? How about a head chef when an apprentice forgot the marinade? Even impatient admonitions echoing-off the hallowed halls of worship may be heard from time to time. Any where there is “passion,” there will be “impatients”. All of that seems terribly out of place in the context of a hobby that, by definition, is an enjoyable “pass time.”
Then there is the over-the-top “compulsive consumer,” who can’t imagine why everyone hasn’t bought the latest “touted” gee-gah for whatever purpose. The perfection that so many desire has gone from attained “perfection” to acquired ‘perfection’. The Artisans of yore are now the Patrons of today. So, what ever road you choose to take, realize that all “endeavors” are elected by the individual, right? And, we should all respect the rights of the “individual” which is definately a two way road.
I must admit that I almost fell victim to this ‘snobbery’. I’m a toddler to the physical side of this hobby even though I’ve known and loved it from as far as I can remember (some twenty odd years).
Initially I felt that if a loco is not of a particular brand that it’s a waste of time and money so I’ll just hold out until I could afford a better one. Well guess what? Years went by and I was like the kid on the outside looking in. Eventually I got tired of waiting and I got one from tyco, I enjoyed every second running it, especially at christmas when visitors came over.
Age took its toll and then the problems kicked in, instantly I became a repair man (through hours and hours of anguish of course) but in the end I came to understand what makes this little engine tick and today I don’t have to send off none of my engines to be fixed. I still have this ‘little-ho-Geep’ even though I now model in n-scale (due to limited space). Maybe if I had succumbed to the notion, I wouldn’t have figured out the true reason why I love Model RRing, and remained he kid on the outside looking in.
I can see how those who have been away from the hobby for a while might find that they are much further (ugh) ‘behind’ than they ever thought when they try to get back into it ,and quickly see how much their 15-20 year-old world-view is sadly, even frighteningly, dated.
The new Star Wars Movie (no, haven’t yet) must be a real eye-bugger, making the first one of 1979/80 nearly laughable. Who wouldn’t pan the first one if it were released as the latest blockbuster today?
Not so much snobbery, as later in time. "Later’ meaning ‘changed’.
So very true. Glad to see you didn’t stay the kid looking in forever. We should always remember that if you wait and wait and wait - it might be too late.
selector,
Great analogy using Star Wars. I don’t know if you ever saw the original King Kong movie - but when I first saw it (late 70’s/early 80’s) I practically laughed through the whole thing. My dad said when he first saw it he couldn’t sleep for a week. Time does change things.
Having been out of the hobby for a large number of years, and just recently getting back into it, the landscape has changed considerably (no pun intended). I don’t think the change is due to technology directly. I think davekelly has it right - it’s a lot easier to model accurately today than it was 20 years ago. When I was 12, Hydrocol was hard to come by (at least for me), so I had to make do with what I had (and it showed). Hopefully my latest reincarnation will look better. I know it will operate better, as I have far more resources to dedicate to better locos, better power systems, etc…
Availability alone does not dismiss the snob factor though. Anyone insisting that I can’t put a steam loco on my modern period layout needs to take a time out. People need to realize that this IS a hobby and it IS meant for enjoyment. Moreover, each person gets enjoyment for different reasons.
I personnally have little interest in modeling a prototype to the n-th detail. I do, however, want to make sure my pike has elements are that are not too far out of reality. Why? Probably because I don’t want other MRR’s looking at my pike say and saying “WTF is that?”
I believe anyone who insists you need BLI consist to “make” your pike run “properly” do a larger disservice to the hobby than anything they can contribute. Everyone should be encouraged, regardless of ability, resources, or size.
For example, MRM showcasing pikes with 300 ft of mainline, taking 20 years to build, and needing 10 people to operate is a little absurd. The current assumption that you need a house sized layout to “effectively” model is ludicris. The pervasion of that concept is definately keeping people out of the hobby IMHO. However, it is the natural evolution of the hobby. What is model railroading? It is modeling the real world. What’s the best way to model the real world? Make the model big enough to actually model the prototype at some particular scale. You just can’t model
There are reasons why those big layouts are in the magazines–largely the same reason that you normally read about major-league players in Sports Illustrated, not the local Little League teams. But I have noted quite a few small layouts in recent issues of MR, as well as in Model Railroad Planning–little shelf layouts, medium-sized 4x8s, and other compact layouts are featured and plans are shown. The big, impressive layouts get page space because they ARE, by and large, big and impressive–but a good photographer can make a 1x3 shelf layout look gigantic.
Or, model portions of the real world that are small enough to model effectively. You can’t build an EXACT model of Horseshoe Curve on a 4x8 in HO, but you could get a fair representation of it. As SpaceMouse mentioned earlier, it certainly LOOKED like 18" radius to him! Would such a model be exact? No. But it could look pretty good with a few simple modeler’s tricks.
I know Im just a newbie to MRR. I thing I might have to disagree with some of you guys on this.
You cant blame the advances in technology or the changes to the hobby for being a “Snobb”. That is something that is within the person. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in you layout. But making someone feel less because they dont or cant run all the bells and whistles is just wrong.
