Had a short discussion on another forum about Lionel, MTH , Williams/Bachman maybe teaming up around Christmas with Home Depot, Lowes or Ace about selling trains during the holidays as in years past and someone said that Lionel or Bachman could probably pull it off but MTH is still too small to do anything like that! Does anyone here think of MTH as a small player in the train market? At worst I see MTH as the perpetual burr under Lionels saddle but still see them as a true heavyweight in the industry.
As to the original idea, what do you think of an connection for Christmas between some of the major players? Home Depot even could have a How To Clinic on building a small platform. Maybe even run commercials on HGTV and other stations.
MTH is about half the size of Lionel in revenues, or slightly less, according to estimates presented at the recent court proceedings. These are all small companies. Lionel has widespread public namebrand recognition, which MTH does not have outside the three rail O gauge hobby. Bachmann does a lot of sales of HO and N starter sets to mass marketers, so they have some credibiity in this area to negotiate with these chains. Even MTH at one point did have products sold at select Sears stores some Christmas seasons in the past, but sales were not up to snuff and the product was discontinued. So it isn’t so much the size of the company involved but the brand recognition and track record of more “mass market” type sales.
My Mom went train shopping with me once. She knew about the Lionel stuff and quipped, “What the heck is MTH?”. I explained what they were and she said, " They couldn’t POSSIBLY make trains better than Lionel."
Neil, Bachmann also has a pretty fair presence in the “G” gauge market. They have a line that is essentially “entry level” and a mid-level line, still not as good as most of the others but at the same time somewhat more economical.
Yes, thanks, I was aware of Bachmann’s large scale line. But large scale is an even smaller market than three rail O gauge, much less HO and N, in volume. Bachmann is also economy end of the spectrum in all scales, as you note, and less well known and probably much lower volume sold than LGB and Aristocraft in large scale. Bachmann isn’t number one in any area of the hobby except perhaps HO mass market sets, and likewise N, which is why they might have some access to national chains. Those national chains will not carry higher end Lionel sets, MTH sets, which are more expensive than most Lionel sets, or LGB. So I think you might see Bachmann in Target, Toys R Us, etc., and you might see lower end Lionel sets as well, but you’re not going to see $350 or $400 MTH sets there is my prediction, and it has little to do with size of the company, and everything to do with brand recognition and price point.
As far as companies go ALL the producers/importers of O-Gauge are small… If you followed the court documents Lionel teamed up with Big Outlets for Christmas and lost $7 Million doing it.
Sorry Guys but the Macy’s displays and Christmas Trains under the tree were from our childhood not our grandchildrens. The O-Gauge hobby has fragmented and will continue in that direction.
MTH is totally commited to it’s DCS type system. Williams/Bachmann wants to stay low cost and conventional. Third Rail and SMR have their own following. First Atlas and now it seems Lionel have tried to spread into the other various segments.
The whole pie is shrinking and being carved into more slices.
Trig,
Williams by Bachman is going to be bringing their own command system to market in the near future. We won’t have 1 command system like the rest of the gauges we’ll have 4! Yes 4!
Brent, please don’t take this personally, but there’s five systems with the fifth one being the first: CONVENTIONAL! It’s reliable, proven, stood the test of time and really as much fun as the others - with a personal disclaimer - in my opinion. But I have a small layout too, so digital control wouldn’t make any real difference. And besides I can’t afford those prices.
But nothing against the other digital control systems. I really like TMCC and DCS in that they’ve helped us conventional guys… prices are way down from a decade ago on a lot of used conventional items like Lionel MPC. And even on well used postwar items, prices are generally down… so that’s good for us. But as Trig indicated, prices being down is also due to a smaller pie and the fragmentation of the existing market.
On the topic of MTH being a small company… well I’ve mentioned this story before but it’s worth repeating. I went to Sears some years ago when they were selling MTH. I looked around the store, found no MTH so I went to the store manager and asked. He didn’t know what I was talking about. I told him MTH trains were kind of similar to Lionel trains. He said something like “Why didn’t you say Lionel in the first place. We don’t have any of those.” I tried to tell him that MTH and Lionel were different companies and I remember him saying something to the effect of why would we sell something no one has ever heard of? Now, Lionel is something I know about.
Yeah, as said above, none of these companies are big in the sense of either toy companies or even HO train makers. BUT Lionel has a 100 year history, and name recognition and NO OTHER 3-rail train maker can compete on that element. That can compete in other ways, but not on that point. The only other 3-rail train company that could come close to the recognition of Lionel (and certainly leagues ahead of MTH) is LOUIS MARX and they’re out of business.
I don’t believe that Bachmann will be coming out with a new command system for three-rail O gauge trains, though their DCC system is already in the On side of the field…