MTH DCS for HO

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

I’ve been using DCC since the mid-90’s, but have decided to switch to MTH DCS. I have the system, but would like to learn a couple of things from the experience of others.

On my Digitrax controlled layout I use DCC Specialties PSX for circuit breakers, and OG-AR for reverse loop control. I want to have the same capability with DCS, and would like to find out what others are using.

I tried inserting the PSX between the TIU and the track but got no response from the loco (the two LED’s on the PSX did light, so there was power to the breaker.

I found a short article saying that the Bachmann DCC Reverse loop controller will work with DCS, so that is an option for the reverse loop.

Is anyone on this forum using DCS HO? If so, what have you found as a solution for a circuit breaker and reverse loop controller?

Thank you in advance for your help.

2

What are you doing with all your DCC locos from the previous layout?

3

I only have 6 loco’s. I’m giving two SP switchers to my son, donating two to an inner-city church youth group, and the last two are going to one of my brothers.

I thought about keeping one of the switchers I hopes that MTH would come out with a kit to convert DCC to DCS, but I don’t see how a conversion would have all the functionality of a DCS loco from the factory.

4

As I recall, DCS puts a higher voltage on the track than DCC. Hopefully, you haven’t damaged your DCC electronics by connecting them to a DCS source. Put a meter set to AC volts across the rails and see what you get. DCC will put out 12-16 volts. I think DCS can go up to 24 volts. It may night fry your circuits immediately, but after prolonged usage, well, even the smell will be unpleasant.

I don’t think you’ll get a lot of responses about “others’ experience” on this. DCS has minimal penetration in the HO scale market. MTH has only been making HO engines for a few years, and they’re putting dual-mode DCC/DCS decoders in them. You can’t buy DCS decoders separately, so you are pretty much stuck with the engines MTH makes. They’re not bad engines, but the selection is very limited.

5

I’m using 16VDC into the system, so I’ll be in a compatible voltage range. The DCC electronics are disconnected before attaching the DCS, so no danger of damage.

You are right - I haven’t gotten much response, and most of what I’ve received has been “why would you want to move away from DCC - it’s the standard.” Makes me think of the Apple 1984 commercial contrasting “standard” versus “innovation.”

Since the TIU has to have two way communication with the locomotive, I don’t believe any electronic circuit breaker is going to work - I’m going to need either a relay or bi-metal device.

According to one link I received, the Bachmann auto-reverse controll will work with DCS. Now I just need an effective breaker.

6

Why not use an auto tail light bulb, the 1156 variety? Wired in series, it is an effective limiter to the amps that can get past it, and it doubles as an indicator of the trouble spot.

Crandell

7

Dave, the reason most people cannot understand your choice is that they cannot imagine restricting their locomotive choices to that one brand - innovative or not.

I don’t know what your modeling interests are, but for most, even the most casual modelers, the offerings of MTH are extreemly limited.

I suppose that if you have no particular passion for a particular prototype, or era, or region, than the offerings of MTH may be just fine. That is simply not the case for most of us.

And, in every informal survey that has been done about onboard sound, only about 60-70% of modelers want it. And of those that do, many have expressed that it is not their highest priority.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, I still use DC and don’t like onboard sound in small scales do the poor sound quality - and don’t tell me how much better MTH sound is - I have heard them. Two 1" speakers are still two 1" speakers.

What I do is innovative, I have cab control with no block toggles, single button turnout routing, fully intergrated signaling and CTC, wireless radio throttles, automatic collision avoidance similar to prototype ATC, full votage pulse width modulation motor control, and true working signal interlocking - all with DC.

But I don’t have any talking locomotives or working class lights that don’t really fit actual prototype practices.

Inovative without compatibility almost killed APPLE, now they play much nicer with PC’s.

I wish you all the best, but it seems your goals are outside the interests and understanding most of the rest of us.

DCC may or maynot be the “standard”, DC is actually still pretty strong, wireless direct radio is

8

Thank you, Sheldon - I hadn’t really thought about standardizing on one manufacturer’s locomotives as being unusual. All my DCC loco’s (all 6 of them) are Atlas. My layout isn’t one of those “super” ones you see featured in MR, so I don’t need a large fleet of power. If the GP-35’s work as well as the FA-1, I’ll be set with a couple of those (and a switcher).

What you’ve done with DC sounds impressive. Have fun.

9

Your first statement is very interesting - many years ago - the WHOLE point of the NMRA and a set of standards was just that, to allow and promote interchangablity between brands, unlike three rail O gauge where there was only one brand for many years.

Not to belabor the point, but the whole idea is that, small layout or large, I can buy the locos that I want, that fit a specific era, railroad, etc, or just what I happen to like, regardless of brand.

Atlas makes great locos, but thier selection would not be suitable for my needs either. Most everything Atlas makes is too “new” prototypically for my layout. On my layout you can find ATHEARN, INTERMOUNTAIN, BACHMANN, PROTO 2000, IHC, MANTUA, BROADWAY LIMITED, RIVAROSSI, PFM, ORIENTAL LIMITED and others.

You will even find various different brands and types double/tripple headed together without the wonders of DCC or DCS.

But all of them, some steam, some diesel, fit the 1954 Class I railroad setting of my layout for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL and for the B&O, C&O and WM who interchange with it.

All of them run well and are well detailed - but none of them came with prices like MTH locos - that why I can have 130 of them for my layout that fills a 900 sq ft room.

But this hobby is very diverse, and is actually become even more diverse with the activities of some bearing no resemblence to the activities of many others.

Again, best of luck

10

I may be missing something here, but all the info I’ve seen on MTH’s DCS system says it can be used to operate any DCC-equipped locomotive…so I’m not clear why you believe switching to a DCS system means you have to give away all your current DCC-equipped engines??

11

To use the example given by the OP in an earlier post, I guess my question would be: In what ways is DCS more “innovative” than DCC?

Tom

12

I just read the MTH front page on DCS, and they do not make that claim. DCS-equipped engines can operate on DCC layouts, with some loss of DCS functionality, but DCC engines can not operate on a DCS controlled system. If you have different news, it would be a significant game-changer.

13

The impression may come that we are trying to drive someone away, but really I think the protest are very well based in facts. Such as the fact that DCC is a standard and compatible across many manufacturers. DCS is proprietary and there is exactly ZERO chance it will ever go beyond a single vendor solution unless it is made avilable for other manufacturers to make compatible equipment. They are even WORSE is many ways than the earlier proprietary comamdn control systems - at least with those you could install a receiver in ANY brnad of loco you wanted. MTH has no provisions for this, if I have a loco I like, there is no way I could add a DCS receiver even if I wanted to.

In addition, this isn;t a case of goifn from DC to some command control sysytem, teh OP had an investment in DCC already. Per the message on th emain board, it seems the drive here wa the aquisition of an MTH loco. My MTH FA set runs fine on my Digitrax DCC system, as well as on the club’s Digitrax system. Many club members have the SD70ACes from MTH, and they all work fine.

I’m a gadget freak, but I have no need for the featue that automatically IDs my loco and shows a picture of it to select, which DCS does but DCC does not. And for every innovation there is always somethign goofy - DCS seems to use batteries and now super caps to maintain the decoder settings, instead of flash memory like DCC decoders. I suppose this is a legacy design, from the original O scale hi-rail DCS stuff and the choice of microcontrollers available at the time. In fact this seemed to be the root of the OP’s problem, the loco would nt save the settings after programming. Switching to DCS won’t fix that, it will forget the DCS settings just like it forgets the DCC settings if there’s a hardware problem like that.

The future may indeed be on-board batteries and true wireless. Problem is, that market is currently int he same state as early command control - there are about 3 manufacturers making systems that cna do

14

Hi all,

I’m a volunteer beta tester for MTH’s DCS software. I’ve been running HO DCS since 2006 when the PRR K4 was released and O scale DCS since 2002. I build layouts full time, so I get to stay pretty up to date in multiple scales.

I experimented quite a bit with the PSX several years ago. Some will let the DCS signal through with little interference, but most will at least partially degrade the signal. The simple solution is to use the PSX between your power supply and the TIU input. The DCS signal is only present on the output side of the TIU, so the PSX won’t cause any interference on the input side.

I’ve tested PSX-AR’a with DCS but never an OG-AR. The PSX-AR caused similar degradation as the PSX. The OG-AR isn’t supposed to be used with DC, only DCC, so it’s not suitable for DCS. The Bachmann reverser is not as fast as a PSX-AR, but it is the best DCS friendly reverser.

Posted by: rk_dave

“I thought about keeping one of the switchers I hopes that MTH would come out with a kit to convert DCC to DCS, but I don’t see how a conversion would have all the functionality of a DCS loco from the factory.”

MTH has said they will have an HO PS3 decoder on the market by mid 2013. However, it looks like it will use BEMF for speed control rather than MTH’s optical tach reader. Even if you add all the LED lighting and remote operating couplers the speed control will not be as consistent as a factory engine.

Posted by: MisterBeasley

“As I recall, DCS puts a higher voltage on the track than DCC.”

Not correct. Like a DCC system, DCS can be used in different scales. Each scale has different recommended voltage ranges. In HO MTH recommends 12-16 volts DC. In O and G you can use either AC or DC at up to 18 and 24 volts

15

Thanks for the info, Dave.

16

So what is the real reverse loop answer for DCS?

Sheldon

17

Posted by: dave hikel

*“*The Bachmann reverser is not as fast as a PSX-AR, but it is the best DCS friendly reverser.”

Sorry if I wasn’t being clear. I prefer the PSX-AR for DCC because it gives the fastest response time. Unfortunately, since it causes interference for DCS it’s not an option. For DCS the Bachmann reverser (item #44912) is your best option.

18

OK, I got that, why does MTH not have their own reverser? What do their instructions suggest?

Sheldon

19

I can only guess why they don’t offer their own reverser. They probably don’t feel much of a need to offer one since there are others already on the market. MTH doesn’t make many DC power supplies. They have a small 20 watt supply with a throttle and a 1.5 amp wall wart type that they have used in their starter sets. They’ve cataloged a 30 watt power supply but it has yet to ship. Perhaps if they do more with DC power supplies they will add a reverser as well. MTH has never made an official recommendation of one particular brand or model of reverser.

20

I really think they need to either produce one, or recommend one, if they are serious about DCS in 2-rail. They don’t have any need for one in 3-rail, you can loop the track back on itself all you want.

–Randy