What about MTH HO quality products, working in DCC systems? Are realiable? thanks
MTH HO loco work best on their own DCS system. They work OK on DCC (with limited options) and passable on DC.
Personally, I would buy something that is fully DCC compatable, and not buy MTH locos (until they offer DC only versions).
David B
I love my MTH loco, and I run it on an NCE DCC system, and everything works great. If I want to run a consist I have to run the Universal consist option, but it supports up to 4 locos which is fine by me. With my NCE powerhouse pro throttle, I have access to all 28 functions. (I really dig the coupler crash sounds)
I have the SD70ACe and the quality is excellent, and this thing pulls hard!
I will be buying more MTH locos.
I have a few MTH only because I got them at a really good deal. I am not that adept to notice the short comings between DCC and DCS operations. Actually I have never seen their system in action so I have nothing to compare it to all that aside they are great look great operating and well detailed locomotives. The one down side their price is astronomical in my o/p. A mrr friend of mine who has mainly MTH locomotives in his engine roster refers to them as HO crack… lol the detail is quite good and they typically run excellent so once you’ve had something that runs and looks so well it’s hard to have anything else. Not for me it isn’t. I guess if I had a completed or almost completed layout and had little or nothing else to spend my money on I may concentrate on getting a few more MTH loco’s but that ain’t gonna happen no time soon.
I wouldn’t say MTH prices are astronomical. For example, I paid $209.00 each for all 9 of my MTH SD70ACe’s. Now the MSRP is $249.95 however Athearn is releasing their SD70ACe’s which will be of no better detail/sound/features for an MSRP of $289. Athearn is obviously more expensive. Or take into account my 2 MTH Steam engines. I paid $519.00 for my Challenger 3985 but it is die cast and is great sounding. I paid $389 for the SP Daylight 4449, but BLI wants about the same for their version of teh 4449. I love MTH, and it can run fine on DCC. You can’t mess with CV’s like on most other manufacturers but that’s not my cup of tea anyway. I can raise and lower the volume and use different horns with one of the functions, so I’m a happy man with MTH.
Putting their DCS system aside, MTH locos operate smoother - especially at low speed - than BLI locos. However, BLI locos have better detailing - IMO - than MTH locos.
As David mentioned previously, DCS locomotives operate okay on DCC but you only have access to a certain number of CVs. For DC, you need a full 24V to get MTH locos to run at full speed. (At least according to the reviews that I read in MR.)
Tom
After all of the hoopla over the MTH-initiated lawsuits a few years back, I decided that I had no use for MTH, so I don’t own any. But, I am very surprised to learn about the shortcomings of MTH engines on both DCC and DC. Now, I am happier than ever that I don’t own any.
Rich
After installing Tsunami’s in my MTH’s I love them. [:D]
I agree wholeheartedly and utterly concerning the MTH frivolous lawsuit that necessitated me to buy a extra chip for my QSI sound equipped loce!!!
Tom
Hi Harley-Davidson,
I now own eight MTH HO engines (2 K4 Pacifics, 1 Triplex, 1 GS-4 Northern, 3 SD70ACe’s, and 1 SD70M-2) and am VERY satisfied with the quality and operation of the engines. One of the SD70ACe’s and one of the K4’s had defects in their first year of operation and were repaired by MTH under warranty. None of the engines that are over a year old have had electronic or mechanical failures.
When I bought my first MTH K4 I was strictly a DC operator in HO. A lot of people complain about MTH engines running too slow on DC. That’s true if you have a small power supply that can’t handle the current draw of an engine with sound lights and smoke. The MTH engines are power hogs compared straight DC engines. I own a rather large DC transformer that has no problem supplying the NMRA standard 15.5volts (yes, it’s 15.5v not 12v - 12 is the minimum sustainable voltage at rated current draw) of DC at higher amperage loads so I had no problem running at prototypical speeds. The comments about requiring 24 volts are now and have always been erroneous. They will tolerate 24 volts without damage but they certainly do not require 24 volts to run properly. That’s like saying that because a car’s engine can turn 6000 rpm that it must turn 6000 rpm on the freeway. It’s simply misleading.
Since purchasing my first MTH engine I have converted to DCC. All my MTH engines came perfectly speed mapped right out of the box. When running on 128 throttle steps each step equals 1 scale mile per hour regardless of locomotive type. Understandably, some people complained that you couldn’t re-map the MTH speed curves to match their existing fleet. Since I already had MTH engines when I converted to DCC I simply adopted the MTH speed map as my standard. My most recent arrival is an UP Heritage SP SD70ACe. Right out of the box it consisted perfectly with my GS-4 #4449 (yes, that’s a prototypical config
No where in NMRA S-9 is there ANY mention of 15.5 volts. Nor has there ever been. The current S-9 (aug 1984) DC standards require a minimum full throttle voltage of 12 volts at the expected load. No maximum is specified.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-9.html
The old S-9 required locos/motors to perform in a “satisfactory manor” at 11 volts DC. (Feb 1961)
MTH locos may well run just fine on 15.5 volts, but the rest of the industry runs just fine on 12 volts.
As for this business of current draw and voltage, simple power supplies with only a transformer, reostat and rectifier will be subject to the regulation percentage in the design of the transformer - and will, depending on the quality of the transformer read much higher voltages at full throttle under light or no load situations - but at the rated amperage should be at or only slightly above the design voltage. So a simple power pack from the 1960’s rated at 3 amps, might well read 16-18 volts under no load, but likley will only read 13 volts under a 3 amp load.
None of this applies to modern solid state regulated power supplies, which many power packs today have and which many advanced DC operators build/use in their home built systems.
Here is a shot of a MTH Mohawk stripped down. It had the drive fitting come loose, a dab of epoxy put things right.
This one uses a Canon EN-22 motor. I believe these to be normal 12 volt motors. The MTH electronics take up the extra voltage for all the stuff they do.
Sheldon, at the risk of eating this dead horse again… Your right, it’s not a standard, it’s a recommended practice. I will apologize for the misstatement.
RP-9 dated May 1973, section 1, paragraph D reads: “Direct current power supplies and packs for
propulsion use shall produce between 12 and 16 volts while delivering rated current.”
Unless a person uses an unusual pulse throttle power supply, like your self, they should see more than 12 volts at full throttle when the running at less than the rated current. What’s unusual about the MTH engines is that they require far more current than other engines. As a result, a power supply that can deliver say 15.5 volts at full throttle with a .5 amp load won’t be able to deliver that same voltage at the 1.5 amps that many of the MTH engines consume.
Looks like the same Canon motor as in the Stewart Baldwin switchers. That would make it likely that what MTH did was instead of condensing the speed contol into a narrow range of about 9-12 volts like other sound systems do on DC, they raised the top voltage and ‘subtract out’ the voltage needed for the electronics. It also looks like there is a small pager motor up there for the smoke blower.
In most of the reviews they say the MTH locos don’t hit full speed on DC until 22 volts - so that’s still well over the 16V of the updated RP. Any way you cut it, sound (MTH or other) just doesn’t work well on DC and there’s really no way to fix that beyond either on-board batteries or some sort of auxiliary power superimposed on the DC contol voltage, in which case you might as well just use DCC.
–Randy
Dave,
It may be true that many of today’s locos draw low currents, but 1.5 amp draws were quite common just a decade or two ago, and much of that equipment is still running on layouts all over this country - so in that regard MTH is not unique or unusual. My old triple headed Athearn F units easily exceeded 1.5 amps pulling a 60 car train.
AND, the type of propulsion I use in not unique or unusual by any means. Pulse and pulse width modulation DC motor control is a 40 year old technology that has been in in wide spread use in model trains for at least 30 years now - have you ever heard of Troller power packs? from the 1980’s?
The magazines and internet have been littered with both commercial products and do it your self pulse width throttles for decades. The Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle has been on the market and in use by modelers in all scales for nearly two decades.
NMRA RP-9 does say “between 12 and 16 volts” making it acceptable for the output voltage to be as high as 16 BUT, also making it accepta
Probably the single greatest reason why most scale modellers would never get into DCS. The range of available DCS compatible locomotives is simply too narrow.
I own 2 of these fantastic units.
I have run them both on NCE and Digitrax and have had no issues with either system, also have had no issue MUing them to one another or to anything else. They are superbly detailed with no major flaw that will keep me from running them.
I will give Athearn a try when they are released to see if their will be any major differences.
One thing is for sure, I love the fact that MTH has installed operating ditch lights on the rear of their CN SD70M-2s, like the prototype, unlike any other manufacturer of plastic models to date. Lets see if Athearn will be up to that challenge.
John
John I have to agree with you. I purchased the Western Pacific Heritage unit and have come to the same conclusion as you have. I have no operating problems in DCC and the detail is excellent. This is my first MTH purchase and like you will probably purchase the Athearn Genesis Southern Pacific version.
The only time you’ll have problems with them is if you do an advance consist or if you try to mix them with another manufacturers loco’s. You have to admit though, the SD70 looks out of place running alone.
Not completely true. Here is my CN loco running with my Tower 55 decodered with an NCE DASR. I didn’t do any modifications at all, it was MUed with a Digitrax Zephyr system. It ran beautifully.