Hi Sheldon,
Obviously you’re not aware of how I spend my days so I’ll share a little of that and maybe you’ll better understand my perspective and my posts. Do I like some of the MTH products? You bet. Do I own engines from a wide range of eras and prototypes? Yes. Does that mean my personal interests aren’t focused on a single prototype? Not at all. I have a very different motive from “collecting” for purchas
Dave,
Thank you for the insite, I only have a few comments:
Even in their move to direct radio, The new Aristo Revolution still uses pulse width modulation as its motor control output, just as do DCC decoders. Their “onboard” recievers can be used trackside, they have plans to introduce a trackside version, and they intend to continue to manufacture and sell the 10 channel TE, and both the trackside and onboard recievers for it, as well as the new Revolution.
My view on “top speed” is simple, at full throttle I should be able to go a speed similar to the prototype’s top speed. Not an unreasonable expectation. All my current locos do that at 13.5 volts. If I used a higher voltage supply and turned off the PWM, MTH locos would run fine on my throttles, and the 10 channel TE I use will handle 10 amps. BUT then all my other locos would run faster and I would loose control range on the throttle when operating them.
I don’t see the glass half empty, I think there are lots of great things going on in this hobby. But, I am not a “go along with the croud”, trendy, latest hot giszmo, kind of person. And with a strong technical background in electronics and sound, I have made my choice about command control and onboard sound - as you clearly understand - FOR ME. I don’t have any customers to “please”.
For me this is NOT a business - I restore 100 year old homes for a living. Model Railroading is my hobby and I will always keep it a hobby. AND, for me the hobby part is doing it myself - if I had to do it with a check book, I would find a new hobby.
And, if products like MTH are the future of the hobby, than I’m glad I have most of the locos I want.
Sheldon
Dave,
There is one last aspect of this that I was unsure how to approach, after some relection, I will give it a shot, hoping no to offend too many.
You and I may be in the same hobby, but I suspect most of your customers are not. So I stand corrected, MTH makes trains for your customers, but again, not for me.
A person who buys a fully restored 57 Chevy is not in the same hobby as the guy who buys one in so so condition, takes it apart, and returns it to like new condition. EVEN, if that person only does some of the work and contracts out jobs beyond his skills or shop equipment.
I do feel the same about this hobby. I have no problem with ready to run anything, I buy a fair amount of it myself. Addmittedly however, most of it still gets some sort of personal touch from me - sometimes small, sometimes major. I have no problem with collectors, causal operators, or those who contract you to build a layout, but don’t expect me to have much in common with them.
I do feel however that if all the products in this hobby become Marklin/MTH like in price and features, to the exclusion of “modeler” oriented products, the hobby will be diminished, and maybe already has. And your job will get harder, not easier.
I do have a problem with those who think I must/should imbrace THEIR view of this hobby and that I should want/like sound, DCC, CTC panels on computer screens, smoke, station announcements, and all the high priced hardware and products that go along with it. In the short time of 1-1/2 years on this forum a lot of people have told me how “backward”, “scared”, etc, etc, I am because I don’t want DCC or sound. Few knew I use DCC on a number of layouts on a regular basis, just not on my own. My background in designing Hi Fi speakers makes onboard sound in HO simply unsatisfying.
But after 40 years in this h
You might be right on the “no better detail”, but the pictures I have seen of the Athearn model is extremely better detailed if you look close and it is correct in many areas the present MTH model is not correct. The MTH do look nice overall but they took some short cuts with detail.
The price you got them for is excellent and they do run well from what I have read.
CZ
And speaking of the SD70Ace, this is the 1982 today in Loomis Ca.
Colfax, Ca
[IMG]http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy345/Trainsforyou/Roseville%
This seems to be typical for MTH and BLI/PCM. They seem to skimp on finer details OR make them over sized or molded on to make them more “rugged” and/or handling friendly. Or, is it they have spent the money on the sound and had to skimp somewhere?
Compare a diesel cab unit diaphragm on a BLI diesel to a Proto2000 diesel, even a Proto2000 diesel from 15 years ago has better detail than most BLI models - just one example.
I’ll take my Proto2000 FA’s over any BLI diesel, except maybe the PCM F3’s, now long gone - does MTH have that tooling?
I’ll take finely detailed fragile models over “handling friendly” less detailed, especially since finely detailed seems to cost less, or at least no more.
Still happy with all my Bachmann, Athearn Genesis, Intermountain and Proto2000 locos.
Sheldon
It is my understanding that MTH received the tooling for the F3’s also in the lawsuit against the Korea builder. MTH will probably do those when the market it good for F units again. One problem that I have with the PCM F units is the number boards. The insert plate sticks out from the number boards instead of being recessed. It is not any easy fix, but it can be improved. If you want some to paint up, I have several undecorated ones that I will not be using.
CZ
Good To see you got a match. make sure they’re close enough in speed when detached though or you’ll chance burning one of them up.
Did you use the old style consist or just program them to the same address?
Just punched in the lead unit 8010 and then the rear unit 7789 and bingo. Nothing fancy.
I own a mixture of all common brands of locos and they all are adequate performers for the most part. The MTH products I own are superior to many other brands regarding quality control = fit, finish & function. Their priceing is very competitive for the performance and I have not had one problem with any of the 8 MTH engines I own. Most other brands I have, had problems of some sort or another, every so often. It is true that MTH has limited access to CV’s in DCC mode but I have not found this to be a big issue. I just run MTH engines with other MTH engines and no problem is encountered. You can always adjust other brands CV’s to match the MTH if needed. It just is not that big a deal in my case. For about $130.00 you can buy a DCS converter box to hook into your DCC system and switch it in or out as needed, to run full function MTH features. MTH is now offering some engines with an NMRA socket and no decoder or sound so you can install what ever decoder and sound you prefer. Are they worth the money? You betcha’. Are other brands competative with MTH? Yes, but you get what you pay for in most cases. Other manufacturers have many more product offerings and therefore more quality issues due to mass production but they all do a great job considering the amount of product they produce. Atlas, BLI, Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 & Herratage steam (Walthers) are all good products. I run them all side by side with MTH using my Digitrax DCC system. The very best quality engines I run are the German, Trix brand that have the best quality drive system I have seen from anyone. The down side with Trix is product availability and US prototype offerings. They are also more expensive than most, but again, you get what you pay for. I enjoy all of the engines I own.
Hi Sheldon,
CZ is correct. MTH did get F3 tooling in their settlement with Korea Brass (aka Model Korea Trading Co.) over stolen drawings and production schedules for 3-rail O-gauge products.
For anyone who’s interested, last month I got to take a tour of MTH’s Maryland headquarters while attending the York, PA, train show. During the tour I spotted these test shots from the tooling on a shelf along side PA’s and FA’s.
Notice one of the B-units has a steam generator and one doesn’t. Both of the A-units had MTH’s remote operating couplers.
The first of MTH’s F3’s off the PCM tooling are due out in time for Christmas. They announced F3 R-T-R starter sets with track, transformer, two freight cars, and a caboose in their 2010 R-T-R sets and accessories catalog. They’re offering DC versions of the sets at an MSRP of $140 and Protosound 3 DCC versions for $200. However, the sets catalog doesn’t mention the set engines having the remote operating couplers. I suspect the engines in the photo are not quite will be in the sets. One neat item included in the sets is an ultra stripped down version of DCS that includes an IR remote control. It doesn’t give access to all the engine’s features, but it does give access to the 1 step = 1 smph speed control on any DC layout. The controller is also a separate sale item for $40.
Dave, thanks for the info.
I currently have Genesis, Intermountain, Proto2000 F units, and one ABBA set of stealth PCM F3’s bought cheap on closeout. The PCM’s are nicely detailed, and as I commented, one of the few diesel offerings from BLI/PCM up to my detail standards. After having “sampled” a lot of the F units out there, I have decided that any future F units on my layout will all be Intermountain or Genesis based on selection (especially of undecorated models since I freelance), running qualities, available non DCC/sound and detail.
I am a big Proto2000 fan but they have choosen to change their gear ratio and their undecorated F7’s only come in the later “no skirt” body version.
I know this will sound picky, but another thing that will keep me from MTH is the DCS controlled couplers. I go to great lengths to couple all my equipment as close as possible for a realistic appearance on my 36" radius and larger curves. I have seen the MTH coupler with its grossly extended length/shank/coupling. No thank you. Again, why pay money for things I would remove/disable?
Again, like smoke and sound, since these features cannot be more realistic and cannot be universally applied to all the equipment on my layout, I feel the realism of my models and overall layout is higher without these features.
Trains don’t just uncouple at the loco, so what benifit is that to my operational scheme?
So when Mike decides he wants to sell trains to the “other” half of the model train market, I might take a look.
And don’t feel too bad about my dislike of MTH, I pick on Broadway Limited for their poor marketing choices as well.
Sheldon
I wouldn’t stay away from a product because of couplers. I simply changed MY SD70’s to Kadees and was done with it. MTH recognizes this which is why they include a standard knuckle coupler in the box. They also thought ahead and included the screw hole of the coupler box.
Hamltnblue, I do not use DCC or sound, and the couplers are just one more high tech item I do not wish to pay for just to remove/disable.
So far, very few of the locos MTH has offered fit my layout scheme or would ever be on my want list.
But for any future release to be considered, it would have to be offered DC (Commonly known these days as DCC ready).
I was very impressed with your DCC installation you posted a while back, but again I personally would not spend MTH prices to then remove the sound/DCS.
I model the early 50’s, so the SD70 is of no personal interest, the only MTH loco so far offered in DC.
Sheldon
I have KATO and MTH and I think MTH is the better value. They’re solid, heavy and detailed (not to mention AVAILABLE, unlike KATO).
Welcome to the Forums Armour Yellow [#welcome]
I picked up my first DCC ready MTH Norfolk Southern SD70M-2 yesterday. I have the same model, different road number, with Protosound 3.0 . Once I get a DCC sound decoder installed in the new unit, I’ll be able to do some side-by-side comparisons. My main complaint so far with the Protosound 3.0 unit is the lack of CV29 support. I am living with it but it is a pain. I plan to get the sound decoder, likely a QSI Revolution, installed in the next few. days. I’ll report back.
Thank you, sir.
Hamltnblue,
I saw your Photobucket photos of the Tsunami install. I received my MTH CSX SD70ACe a few weeks ago. It is DCC-ready & I’d like to have a DCC (motor &) sound decoder installed. I’m not familiar with an Tsunami products. Which Tsunami decoder would I need to order to get the prototypical motor & horn sounds that this loco should have?
Thanks for your help.
Whenever I look at MTH’s prices I balk. They are typically listed in the MSRP $400->$500 range or more. Add to this they have a MAP (minimum advertised price) and that dealer margins are quite low (told to me by a shop owner) it’s no wonder I rarely see much of a discount on them.
I looked at their Berk’s. I wanted one for my C&O fleet. Even with places that do offer discounts, it’s significantly more expensive then fully working QSI P2K Berks, or Bachmann berks with a post sound install. And the details are all wrong on the MTH version. (the P2K, and Bachmann berks have incorrect pilots, but the details on the MTH C&O Berks are just way wrong.)
I both cringe and look forward to when they make the C&O H-8 2-6-6-6. (They did it in O scale, and RR/Hornby doesn’t sound like they are going to make any more any time soon.) I know MTH’s are built well, but I fear the price and detail errors.
I used the TSU-1000 EMD 710. You will also need to get an 8 pin connector and solder the wires for your application. The DCS version has polarity issues when changing decoders to DCC but yours should be no problem since it was made DCC ready.