Just what the topic says. I found a very nifty basement wall finishing system that is far easier than building stud walls, installing insualtion batts, and a vapor barrier. It’s also far thinner than a 2x4 stud wall with insulation. And cheaper. This stuff looks so easy I think even I can do it. The downside is it is designed to support drywall, and maybe hanging pictures on the wall, but certainly not all the layout benchwork. It’s basically sheets of EPS foam (like the pink and blue stuff) with embedded plastic nailers to screw the drywall covering to.
I have no problem putting legs under my layout even along the walls, insteadof mounting it to the wall. In fact I’m leaning towards doing that no matter waht, easier to move/change if it’s not bolted to the wall. But what about a second deck? I’m planning on making pretty much the entire layotu double deck, and having supports in the front of the lower deck just won’t cut it. I can;t say all areas on the upper deck will be narrow - a canteliever type of thing might work, for narrowwer areas - just extend the backdrop support all the way up to support the lower level backdrop, the upper deck, the upper deck backdrop, and sone sort of valence. I don;t expect much weight for the valence - I’m planning to use LED strips.
I don’t need to climb up on it, it just needs to be strong enough to support the structure, the trains, and the scenery. I’m thinking that if the bottom has legs in front and back, and the upper deck is always less deep than the lower level, it should be fairly stable, or am I off my rocker here?
All else fails, i can go back to traditional wall finishing methods and just bolt the whole thing to the wall, but across the full width of the room this newer method can save at least 8" of space. Oh, and this stuff has wire channels already molded in to run electrical wires, so no drilling through the stud wall to rough in the electrical.
Working on my track plan tonight, I may have answered my own question. The single largest run on the lower level will be the yard, so the upper level above that will be kept somewhat minimal because even allowing a 4 foot aisle in that area it will be hard for an operator to do much with their upper level train without stepping all over the yardmaster on the lower deck. So, slight overhang, no problem. The next longest wall will be split by a penninsula wall I will build, which means the upper deck section on either side of it can gain support from the center wall as well as the side walls.
Now my only concern is lighting the yard area when the deck above it does not actually hang out over it very far.
Back when I was living in military housing ("No screwholes in the walls, ever!) I built L-frame superlegs of 2x4. Then I built a layout with its surface 39 inches above the floor, with two bookshelves above. The space below the layout was curtained off and provided storage for boxed items.
The L-joint was reinforced with a heavy pressed steel shelf bracket. The layout surface (3/4" plywood) was supported from below, as was the shelf at 68 inches (the top of the supereleg.) The shelf at 56 inches was supported by inverted shelf brackets, leaving the space above the layout clear. Lateral bracing was provided by the 16 inch high, 1/4 inch plywood backdrop.
That was my home layout/test track/workbench for two years. I was doing most of my serious work (and running) on the base club layout, so the layout aspect was minimal - but still survives as the basis for my ‘end of the railroad’ module.
Since you are only concerned with attaching the layout to the walls, you could make some of the layout support legs very long and run them to the ceiling and attach it to the joists. You only need a few to keep the double deck structure from falling forwards, not every 16 inches like a studded wall.
I have a 30 foot long free standing layout that I kept from shifting by securing it to the wall in 4 places. You could do the same thing by just running a few legs up to the ceiling. Those legs might also be a way to securing furring strips horizontally for supporting a backdrop.
Or if you wanted to use the drywall as the backdrop, you could secure the legs to the floor. If the structure fell forward, the back legs would rise off of the floor, so keeping them secured to the floor would keep the layout from falling forward.
Personally, I would rather use the extra lumber to build a seprate backdrop than to put holes in my concrete floor, but that’s my preference.
Yeah not big on making holes in the floor, which is why I’m looking at the alternative wall finishing options as well - no holes in the walls, either. At least, with this one system - InSoFast. It gets glued to the walls with construction adhesive. The others all seem to need holes drilled and fasteners used either on the panels on or tracsk to which the panels attach, or even in a grid of furring strips installed over the panels just like if you just used plain pink or blue foam. They also support using Drylok on the walls prior to gluing on the panels.
If it seems like I need more support I can go to the ceiling, but of course then I have to notch out my ceiling tiles. But as I plan things out it looks like there won;t really be long spans where the upper deck will be more than 16" wide or less. Where it will be wider, it will be along the wall I need to build for the penninsula, which will be a normal stud wall floor to ceiling so I can mount the benchwork right to the studs.
As a general observation, the amateur carpenter in me has concluded our benchwork construction techniques tends to put too much emphasis on the weight of the layout. Its not that heavy. To support it vertically, only a few verticle pieces attached to the walls (or whatever) or resting on the floor is needed to support the weight of a layout.
Stud walls are built 16 inches on center to support finished room drywall…so somebody doesn’t punch a hole through it. I’ve seen nonstructural significant walls studded 24 inches on center, but if covered with thin drywall, it may brew trouble.
To support a shelf type of layout (your upper deck) the real problem is how to keep it from sagging along its length, not really supporting the weight of it.
Consider using one 8 ft 2x4 (possibly even 1x) laid on edge parallel to the ceiling and floor 16 inches proud of the wall to keep the benchwork from sagging in between its verticle supports. Really, you would only need verticle supports every 8 ft, compared to the 16 inches we normally use to stud a wall. You would want another 2x (1x) strung closer to the wall to support that side.
L brackets positioned from above could support the 2x boards from underneath, provided the brackets are stout enough…that’s where the money would be spent…finding stout brackets.
From that basic support structure, you could build a web of open grid on top of that or a simple table top resting directly on the 2xs. I’m convinced that it wouldn’t sag.
BTW: Ceiling tiles cost like $1.50 each, so put holes in as many as you need, IMO.
I’m not too worried about sag - if not for the penninsula wall I could span the 12’ wall end to end with just 2 pairs of legs and still stand on it. That’s with traditional L girders - I’ve pretty much given up on stick lumber so I will probably make everything from 3/4" plywood, and while cutting strips 3 1/2" wide to be a 1x4 are fine, I can’t imaging cutting stripes (safely) less than 2" wide to be 1x2’s. I don’t have a table saw and don’t plan to buy one. So my L girders will probably be effectively a 1x4 L with another 1x4. I may use stick lumber for the small flange for the upper deck just to maximize clearance, but for the most part this will be 6’ or less span, and L girders won’t sag over that.
LION builded layout of him, three levels on bents that go all the way to the floor down. The weight of the layout is on the floor, BUT… there are attachments to the wall just to keep it from tipping. Just a simple toggle in the drywall will do it. Of course wall of LION is extra harde hardened concrete. Almost impossible into drill.
WTH: walls are easy to patch when you must remove the layout.
The wall finishing system I am considering does not allow for the supporting of much weight. You can hang pictures on it, that’s about it. I’d have to drill all the way through it and into the block to attach to the exterior walls. Interior walls, being normal stud walls from floor to ceiling are no problem and I will support the layout from the walls in those areas.
Randy, Are you considering the Andersen wall system or some sort of equivalent? If there is little or minimal support framing, how strong is the wall system, especially for deflection? Although you don’t seem to want to “build on the wall” any free standing framework properly braced for support and to prevent any wracking, still can benefit from a few points of wall attachment. This will help in any shake/ movement if the structure happens to get hit or bumped.
What deflection? It’s built up against a concrete block foundation wall. Interior partition walls are standard stud wall construction. No need for insulation on the interior walls, the whole basement is heated anyhow.
There should be plenty of support attachment. On one wall, in the middle oof it will be a perpendicular stud wall to support the penninsula. On one side of that is an interior wall, so the section between the stairs and penninsula will have wall attachments on each end. The other side will have attachment at the penninsula wall, but then the section on the next exterior wall will have an interior wall to which is can be attached that will be part of the furnace room. It’s a 90 degree coorner so the side wall part will be braced between the furnace room wall and the rear exterior wall, and the rear section will be braced between the penninsula wall and the side exterioor wall - it’s not going to shake (my 2x8 sections from my previous layout had no issues with wobble and shake either, and they were completely freestanding. The only time I needed to make a wall attachment was on a section that was only 1 foot wide instead of 2 feet, one metal L bracket screwed to a stud through the wall and into one of the legs took care of that). Going downt he front wall, at one side it will attach to the furnace room wall, at the other end, there will be the large base supporting the helix to anchor things. The penninsula will be supported by a stud wall, and the area I have planned for a branch runs along 2 interior walls and so will be attached directly to the walls.
Have you considered that this may be one of those “pay me now or pay me later” situations? Either the wall or the benchwork has to be built robustly enough to support the layout so whatever labor you save on the wall you’ll just have to put into the benchwork. I really believe that building a traditional stud wall is far easier than building a free-standing double deck layout.
Also, as pointed out earlier, you will screw up the drywall with the layout whether or not you attach to it. When the layout moves out, you are going to have to patch and paint anyway so a few extra holes that supported the benchwork won’t create that much more work. I have a nicely finished dining room downstairs that previously held two different generations of a double deck layout. It was no big job to repair the walls and you can’t tell the layouts were ever there - and this was before I figured out that you don’t need lag screws to hold up a model railroad.
If I could get away without insulation (the cheap throown together walls buiult by the PO do not have insulation - which is why I want it!), it would maximize the space by simply building stud walls all around. Using the flat sinishing system saves a good but of space coompared to stud walls, and fiberglas batts in basement walls are just a horrible idea, so yoou end up putting a thickness of extruded fooam on the walls and then building the stud wall in front, making it that much thicker. If you lay the walls up with 2x3’s laid flat, you have the same load bearing issue as the flat finishing system with the built in nailers for the drywall. So a direct to wall system with a freestanmding layout in front is the best use of space. I was greatly overthinking it, supporting double deck doesn;t need to be difficult as some of the ideas here have shown. There will be no runs longer than the recommended unsupported runs for the materials used (in model railroad benchwork design - never mind the actual architectural strength of the material) where I will not have some sort of support for the front edge of the upper deck. As I work out more of the track plan details, this becomes more evident. I was worried about basically nothing. If I really am worried about it, there is an idea in the Jeff Wilson version of the benchwork book that shows how one modeler used steel carpenter squares as the braces for his upper deck. Doing that ever 16" like shown is probably WAY overkill, but a few such supports strategically placed should eliminate any chance of flex under model railroad loads. I’m thinking that using simple metal angles will in truth be sufficient. Either one does noot intrude on the space between the bottom of the upper deck and the top of the lower deck, yet makes for sturdy support.
If you’re interested in maximizing your space by minimizing wall thickness, take a look at this article. I haven’t tried it, but I think it’s an interesting idea for partitions.
Given that my penninsula wall will have a turnback curve at the end - I don’t see the point. OK, so it’s thinner than a 2x4 stud wall. It’s lighter? In my case it will rest on a concrete floor, I don’t think weight will be an issue (if I were building a layout in an upper floor - it could be a consideration). Actually - is it really thinner? My penninsula wall will be 3 1/2" thick (width of a 2x4). I’m not planning on installing any drywall below the lower deck, just between decks and above the top deck. The open space underneath is to promote air circulation. It won’t be visible behind a fabric skirt velcroed to the lower deck fascia.