Just wondering if the Broadway Limited had muliple sections, and if so, what years did this occur and how many sections at the peak? Did other PRR name trains enjoy enough popularity to have multiple sections?
Most all first class passenger trains on First Class and other railroads ran in more than one section at one time or another I am sure. Just a busy day may warrant it on the railroad when they realize the reservations or ticket sales go beyond normal. Special weekends, holidays, special events, or popularity would give them a chance to plan further in advance. Sometimes sections would run only part of a route, sometimes the whole route. As many sections of a train could run usually up to the schedule of the next train over the same route(s) and depending on how much equipment was on hand. Sometimes a charter train or special would be run as a section of a certain train to give it authority and schedule. Sometimes trains would run as Advance Section rather than second, etc. Advance sections and all other extras would run with white marker lights on the locomotive; second and successive sections would carry green markers forward. Usually sections would as closely replicate the original train in equipment when possible but sections going shorter distances might just get coaches, even commuter coaches if necessary. Each railroad had its own programs and problems when running in sections.
BTW, freight trains may also, did also, run in advance or following sections when traffic warranted.
Thanks Henry, but I guess I was looking for something a little more specific to the PRR Broadway regarding number of sections and general dates, as well as which PRR Blue Ribbon trains had multiple sections. If anyone has PRR-specific information, or knows where I could find it, it would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Sections would run when warranted…holidays, weekends, special events, summer rush…there was no pattern. Over the years, probably you could count the extra sections in the thousands of times. Overall no one can be more specific than that unless you are more specific with a date or an occasion. Sections were not in the timetables but it was known pretty well in advance which dates might need sections. Otherwise look in the picture books and see if you can define a white flag from a green flag or if the captions can tell you.
Extra Sections of any service…passenger or freight is demand driven…as is the scheduled service itself. If you don’t have demand for a service…you don’t need nor can you financially justify having the service.
Reading I have done over the years leads me to the belief that somewhere I have read that both the Broadway and 20th Century Limited have operated as many as 7 extra sections…obviously, when that occurred there was heavy demand for the service.
When a service consistently required a additional section(s) over a period of time, the carrier would implement ‘new’ scheduled service to satisfy the demand, rather than to continue to operate the second section(s). I believe demand required NYC to implement the ‘Commodore Vanderbilt’ and the PRR to implement ‘The General’ rather than to continue to operate trains as additional sections of their standard bearers.
My own experience, for what it is worth, is that many extra sections were often run for the Century and occasionally run for the Broadway up to the 1938 streamlining. After that time, through WWII, and after WWII, extra sections were not run, generally, for these trains. These trains had special amenities which could not be met by simply taking cars (heavyweight or lightweight) from the Pullman pool. So extra demand (including me) was accommodated on the Commodre Vanderbilt and General, which did have extra sections. Much thte same rule applied to the Southerner, the Tennesean, and the Florida streamliners, as well. The Piedmont Limited, Queen and Crescent, Havana Special, and Sunland and Palmland could have extra sections and did. I cannot speak for the western streamliners because I generally did not ride them during periods of heavy demand.
The exception was that the Century very seldom but did run a single extra section in one direction when protection lounge and observation equipment was available and could be scheduled into service. Thus photos of a stainless obs at the rear of an all two-tone grey Century, an extra section. The Broadway’s equipment was a bit more specialized.
During World War II, troop trains were often run as second sections.
Santa Fe’s practice was to run special and extra passenger trains as sections of a scheduled run.
The Broadway and the 20th Century Limited’s in the early 20th century both had the tradition of keeping their trains to a maximum of 9 cars. The reason was so the elite passengers would not have to rush during the dining hours and the lounge/observation cars being crowded and unenjoyable. Once the train was sold out then other sections were then put into place. Once that section was then sold out to the nine car max, then on to another. Pullman was well aware of this practice and always had a fleet of cars available for them. Basically, the railroads wanted your experience on the train to be as enjoyable and hassel free as possible, and a main concern, eating at your pleasure.
During this era to see multiple sections during high travel periods such as holidays was not uncommon.
When the trains were reequipped in 1938, the cars were bigger and could accomodate and handle a larger ridership, to include the dining cars. So again, once the railroad decided that the train was at its "comfortable " max, another section was then put in place. Generally during this time thirteen cars sold is when another section was considered.
The war years, both WWI and WWII, had a big impact on this but the traveling public understood. Post WWII once again seen new equipment for the Broadway and the train length seemed to be holding its own, but when necessary a second section was added. Even into the PC era the Broadway would on rare occasion run a second section.
A book I recommend on the Broadway is Joe Welsh’s book called the Pennsylvania Railroad’s Broadway Limited. It has very detailed information as to equipment and how the train operated. The same publishing company also had a book on the 20th Century Limited, both books make reference to one another, plus lots of pictures. The story of these two trains is facinating and you’ll realize they were not the enemy everyone thinks, it was we
Except that the last section carried no markers. Thus, if a section were operated over just a part of a scheduled train’s route, it would carry the green–and the regular section, running behind the additional section and carying no markers, would not have to stop and put the green markers up or take them down.
However, if for some reason the section that was running last should be ordered to run ahead of another section, it would have to put markers up, and the section that now was last would have to take its markers down. This exchange had to be made by train order.
I have seen one additional section of a scheduled passenger train–a first section of IC #3, the Louisiane. I do not remember the occasion.
In my post, I was only referring to second and additional sections run for general passenger boarding. Troop trains and trains run for special charter groups could always be run operationally as an additional section to the Broadway or Century. I can assure you that any of the general passenger 2nd sections to these two trains was extremely rare 1938-1948, because there simply was not available additional equipment to offer all the amenities advertized for these trains. It may have happened in one direction only at a time on some occasions. After 1948, possibliy more frequently because more lightweight euqipment was available and there was standby and protection equipment, at least at first. After the Broadway received coaches and a Washington, DC section, it was really the old General with the Broadway name. The observation cars Tower View and Mountain View were sold. So addidtional sections certainly were possible in the last PRR days and the PC days up to Amtrak. I beleive I may have ridden the train once eastbound when the Washington section was a separate train. I am not sure because I was asleep at Harrisburg, and possibly both the Washington cars were detached and additional coaches added at Harisburg.
CP would sometimes split the Dominion west of Calgary based on car type due to the mountainous terrain. Headend traffic and coaches for travelers having tickets to local stations would ride in this section. Sleepers, diners, and coaches for people going longer distances would be in the following section(s). Canada didn’t have Pullman only trains, except those originating or terminating in a US city. There would be coaches on first class trains, but passengers could only board or stop at small stations if they met certain conditions. Traveling to or from a major city more than a certain distance away.
Bruce
Bruce, what about CN’s Ocean Limited? A 1950’s Guide (there were other years, as well) shows it as being all-Pullman on its run between Montréal and Halifax.
Also the Montreal/Toronto-Vancouver Trans-Canada Limited and the Montreal-Halifax Acadian were all Pullman Canadian runs during the 1920’s.
This is all very interesting. The Trans-Canada Limited only lasted a year or two before the Depression and then was replaced a year or two after that with The Dominion. I am not sure about The Acadian, but I suspect Depression era economics disabused them of that notion. Running all Pullman trains after business picked up after 1935, on the CPR at least…
I admit to being far from conversant with CN passenger operations prior to VIA, beyond that which is in the book “VIA Rail” by Christopher Greenlaw.
This will teach me to make all encompassing statements.
Bruce
Actually the Trans-Canada Limited was a summer all-Pullman operation from 1919 to 1930.
I stand corrected. I was thinking of the 1929 re-equipping of the Trans-Canada Limited. Examples of most of these cars are in the collection of the Cranbrook Railway Museum in Cranbrook, BC. Here is a link:
http://www.crowsnest.bc.ca/tcltd/history.html
Bruce
Does anyone know how to make links hot in Firefox. I am beginning to become really perturbed.
You will have to copy the link in the above post.
Bruce
One train that almost always had several sections during WWII was the PRR-RF&P-ACL-FEC Havanna Special. And PRR P-70 coaches did show up in Miami. Despite this being a non-resserved train for the coach passengers, through coaches were advertized.
The 20th Century streamlined re-equips were always for 4 trainsets, so as to be able to run two sections any day, as well as provide for subs during servicing and repairs. Whereas the Broadway was supplied with two trainsets, with no provision for extra sections of dedicated equipment. The Century was the only train I know of that was delivered with sufficient equipment to run in sections as a matter of routine. AA