I attended an estate auction yesterday in which an individual’s collection of locomotives was sold off. The collection featured a couple dozen brass locomotives. I’ve never dealt with brass - I must admit that several of the locos for sale were indeed stunningly beautiful. But my jaw dropped at the prices these engines were fetching. Hundreds of dollars apiece. As I recall, the high bid for one engine was around $800, and stuff was basically going at fire sale prices (more on that in a moment). With each locomotive sold, I’d think to myself, “I could buy five of the engines I run on my layout for that one. I could buy six for that one…” The amount of money this individual had sunk into his brass collection was utterly staggering.
After all the brass had sold, they moved on to the boxes stacked with “junk” locomotives. In most auctions I’ve attended, the junk engines are Tycos and the like. In this case, the “junk” engines were mostly Kato, Tenshodo, and Spectrum. Most of them were too modern for my layout, though I did pick up a Kato F-unit for $7.50. Tested it on my layout last night and it runs like a Swiss watch. What a steal.
So my question is directed mostly at you brass collectors out there. Is this typical for a brass collection? Do a lot of people really invest that heavily into their motive roster?
I’m a brass runner - my roster consists of 2 West Side models HOn3 brass locos, which were around $300 apiece. But that’s the only real price range in HOn3 - $300 brass or $300 plastic RTR. However, I did adjust my operational schema slightly so that I wouldn’t need to purchase any more locos for the foreseeable future. So as far as I’m concerned, no, I don’t spend that much money on my brass locos.
One must appreciate that there are quite a number of individuals out there that are strictly “brass collectors” and that there is usually little or no comparison between most of the collectors and those guys who are actually running brass models. Admittedly, there are some few that bridge the gap. Let me say from experience that even really small-time brass collectors with only a score, or fewer, locomotives can have collections valued at well over $25,000. For the big boys, it can run to several 100k. Since there is very little interaction between the real brass collectors and the rest of us, model railroaders have never fully appreciate that market’s way of thinking.
Incidentally, the larger current production HO brass steamers can command $2,000 to $3,000 per, as can some of the much early “crowns”. Some serious O scale models run several times that. It’s a totally different hobby from model railroading and its participants are generally much wealthier than the rest of us.
As to the concept that you could have purchased 3, 4, or even 5 of the better modern plastic locos for the price that one of the brass models sold for, the difference is that the quality and detail on the brass model is likely a factor of that many times better than on the layout-quality plastic model. I can tell you straight away, those who claim that today’s plastic steamers rival brass simply has never owned a really quality brass model.
Incidentally, if you want to really see staggering prices, look for brass ship, automobile and aircraft models. [;)]
Being involved with brass retailing for almost two decades, I can shed some light on this one. Actually depending on the model, $800 is not really that much, and could have been a bargain. The extreme of this brass at auction bit would have been March of 1997 at the Southeby’s auction in NYC. Many pieces sold there for an an average price near $10,000 with the highest being a KCS 2-10-4 improted by PFM in 1963 fetching $28,000. After NYC sales tax and house premium, the buyer paid over $34,000.
Also that date was the heyday of brass models. The decline can be traced to several reasons…but mainly due to brass owners and collectors just retiring, and to smaller quarters. Newbies into the field just did not have the love or knowledge of steam locos which were and are overwhelmingly what is modeled.
Brass models are literaly a hobby within a hobby. They are in every sense of the word, hand crafted fine art which is indeed collectible. Unfortunately brass collecting was never presented to the general public and remained within the confines of a very parsimonius community.
Some brass folks actually play with these as do I. A serious modeler today will opt for brass if there is not a plastic or die cast model of the prototype he is seeking. I was once a serious Western Maryland nut, but the only non- brass models were a Bachmann I-1 2-10-0 and a 2-8-0 masquerading as an H-?, but obviously coming from Illinois Central heritage. In brass I found almost everying the WM had in steam and diesel except for a few classes of articulated and sub-classes of steam and diesels.
The myth about brass not running as well as today’s plastic and die-cast models is partly true, but when once set up (sort of like buying a new stringed instrument) it will last forever…plastic??? I once ran a PFM/United PRR K-4 on my hobby shop layout 8 hours per day for almost two years. The store gave out before the loco, and I s
Brass represents the intersection of collectors (which implies rarity), a desire for quality and accuracy, luxury goods, and maybe even some snob appeal. Automobiles have some of the same elements. So do high end writing pens – they write no better but that is profoundly not the point. So you have the same basic item – a model of a locomotive – that is desired by three different audiences: people who want a locomotive to pull their model train cars, people who want a beautiful item to grace their shelves, and people who want a commodity that will appreciate in value purely as an investment (I just read Howard Zane’s posting and don’t disagree – it may not be a good investment but some people think it is, and that is all it takes to bump up the bidding). Not surprisingly, the latter two groups compete among themselves and pretty much freeze out the first guy, the guy who just wants the wheels to turn. That guy will always be outbid by the others.
In some ways used brass prices seem to violate the laws of supply and demand. Brass steam locomotives were a common (and at one time were even regarded as cheap!) item from the early 1950s right up to the 1990s (shifting from Japanese to mostly Korean origin in the process). By common item I mean, hobby shops stocked them without knowing in advance that any particular customer would purchase them, and some locomotives such as the Santa Fe 2-8-0 that PFM offered were kept in the catalog for decades, not special ordered or limited run. There were special runs and extra special trains – the Crown line that PFM offered comes to mind. But in theory we should be up to our armpits in used brass from the 1950s to 1970s as modelers from that era die or retire. Sometimes deals are to be had, for sure, and I have seen brass steamers selling for a couple hundred bucks particularly if they no longer have the original box or were painted by the prior owner.&n
Was it really that staggering in comparison to the roster lists I’ve seen on this forum? I’m assuming the “couple dozen” brass locomotives went for an average of say $500 (I’m being generous) - most would be less, a few would be more. That’s $12,000 total.
Buy the same number (24) of current production steam locomotives from BLI, Rivarossi, Trix, MTH at today’s street prices - and tell me how much cheaper it actually is. I’d bet you’d be up in $8K country. For beautiful plastic and die cast locomotives - many with sound and electronic boards and wonderful paint jobs, but of unknown long term durability.
And the diesel guys with their 100 locomotive rosters - to replace that today would be over $10K.
So no, I don’t think the amount is staggering for some to many in the hobby - although I personally am not in that league. I’m sure it was done at the rate of a couple of locomotives a year. And he may have paid less when he originally bought his brass.
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So my question is directed mostly at you brass collectors out there. Is this typical for a brass collection? Do a lot of people really invest that heavily into their motive
I would say that in general, today’s brass is better than today’s plastic. Just as yesterday’s brass was better than yesterday’s plastic (and zamack castings). But modern plastic against yesterday’s brass? My one direct comparison example is no contest, PCM Reading T-1 vs the NJ Custom Brass version from the 70’s - the PCM model is more detailed and the fine bits are just as fine. But I still see the brass version (unpainted) going for $500 and up on eBay. Not falsely advertised, either, in a way that could trick the unwary that it’s actually the Overland version - the more recent Overland brass version IS more detailed than the PCM version.
This is a very intersting thread. I think I can simplify the discussion of brass vs.other rather easily.I have found that folks who purchase brass…quite basically do so because they can.
I hope this statement does not come off as arrogance as it is not the intention.
I don’t doubt you, but I’ve never seen it. All of the brass models I’ve seen, like on ebay and whatnot, do not look anywhere near as well-detailed as the better plastic models. I have always heard that good brass is better than plastic. But from what I’ve seen-- which admittedly isn’t everything-- the brass beats out the “older” plastic models, but the newer plastic models win out over the brass.
I would very much enjoy looking at something that is nicer than that. I’m not doubting it exists, but I’d sure like to see some close-up pictures of it. I’m sure it would be worth the look.
Perhaps “costs concerned” would be a better choice. Then again what is the percentage of brass collectors in the hobby? My guess would be less than 5%.
Interesting insights, all. I found the “hobby within a hobby” comment to be particularly enlightening. Brass collecting is certainly the World’s Greatest Hobby on a plane far above anything within my personal universe.
I must admit that I shared that very same opinion. Just didn’t see what the big deal was about brass. But having seen some up close and personal now, I must say that, compared with plastic engines, the brass is so finely detailed that there really is no comparison. In previewing the auctions, I was honestly a little afraid to even touch them. Though, the few locomotive I did handle were like picking up solid bricks - the weight applied to the drivers would be quite impressive.
I have seen brass go from one extreme to the other (was there for the liquidation of the Lambert estate) someone I know bought the whole thing for $8000.00, my buddy bought a beautiful camel-back from this person for $125.00. I personally own a half dozen brass but the most expensive is a Powerhouse Little River which I paid a little over $100 and have seen go for $400 but this is a hybrid but worth more than some of my all brass ones. Price on anything has to do with supply and demand, example the heisler, brass for that at one time (not the best pieces) went for around $400, Rivarossi’s were going for around $125. Rivarossi came out with a new improved model but it only impacted brass prices a little. In comes Spectrum with theirs and the price (even on the better stuff) dropped dramaticaly and you can still get Rivarossi’s for cheaper if you look. Now that Spectrum has almost disappeared from the market, the price of both have shot up. Now this is just what has happened on the low end but Spectrum did hit the lower priced Crowns price some at the time as the brass market thought Spectrum was going to come out with model after model, this did not happen. But as said the best of the best don’t seam to be affected by these things, a different world
Something else to think about when it comes to cost: The brass collectors usually don’t run their equipment on a layout, so they aren’t shelling out cash for vehicles, structures, scenery, lots of rolling stock, track, benchwork, expensive Tortoise switch machines, etc. When you add up all of those expenses for even a medium-sized layout, it can add up quickly. So is $800 for a single locomotive really that outlandish? Maybe. Maybe not. Guess it depends on how you like to spend your discretionary income.
Fred makes an excellent point here. I recently took a long, hard look at my situation and scaled back my ambitions. I tweaked the layout’s theme so that I only need a few locos to pull it off realistically, as opposed to needing 30 before, as well as hundreds of pieces of rolling stock. What does that mean? Basically, I now have the budget for one or two brass locos or high-quality plastic with sound, as opposed to 30 mediocre locos. And a few dozen well-detailed pieces of rolling stock, as opposed to hundreds of “so-so” models. Since I’m a detail nut, it really wasn’t that much of a leap. But I started thinking in terms of quality rather than quantity, and it really opened up a new way of thinking. Plus, would I really have the time to get a large layout and 30 locos up and running? Nope. And the funds for i
I hear you but it is hard to give up things you collected, remember when I got rid of most of my MDC stuff, very hard, doing IHC now as the cheap locos on mine are now Spectrum or Proto steam.
The replies on this forum are some of the more sane answers to brass "collecting’’ ( I still cannot get my mind around this ‘‘hobby’’) The above explanations do make some sense rather than someone’s forum on the 400 brass locomotives they have, also, gentlemen, you may be surprised as to how many “collections” of brass end in the local land fill, as they were tossed by relatives as ‘‘toys’’ How sad is that.
A lot of the stuff one sees on eBay are early models…which were nevertheless lightyears ahead of anything else available at the time. The really early stuff (late 1950’s) could sometimes be called downright crude (International/IMP).
However, here’s a nice much later example, from 1989. Newer brass models are even better.
John, this brass steamer, which belongs to a friend, is a good example of what’s available in current-day brass:
In addition to the functioning diaphram between engine and tender, this loco has operating doors and roof hatches. It ran, for the very first time, on my layout and the operation, right out of the box, was flawless. Absolutely the smoothest running steam loco I have ever seen and probably better than 95% of current-day diesels, too. Like buttah! [swg]
Two of my friends are brass aficionados, and both have layouts. Both have collections of somewhere between 50 and 100 locos, and while I would consider one to be primarily a collector, he does run them too. The other guy is definitely a runner, and
I bought my first piece of brass 28 years ago, a Hallmark CF7. At the time, that was the only way to get a CF7. I never dreamed that in my lifetime, Athearn would produce a RTR CF7 for under $100. The Hallmark CF7 is beautiful, but it is a hangar queen; its vertical clearances are such that it requires perfect track, so it stays in the box while my Athearns and RPPs run.
