N versus HO (again).

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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I’ve researched the archives as best I can but still have questions about whether I should go HO or N.

At this point I have no equipment. Eyesight is generally good although I wear glasses. Dexterity is fine. Age 59. I have space in the basement although I’d be starting around 4 X 8 or maybe 6 X 10, could start with either.

Don’t even have a layout in mind although I’m thinking of mountains, tressels, tunnels, doing some ups and downs as part of it plus perhaps switch yard as part. Running at least two locos, MUCH prefer steam. Don’t care about fine details at all. Have never done any proto stuff, only had “table top” sets in HO and O (wish I had the the old lionel 1955 set still).

Have lots of questions regardless. Should I start with DCC (which manufacturer, is there any difference?). Should I buy all parts or should I get a kit of some sort? I figure I’ll build a table but, I’m not sure of how to proceed. Do I plan out what my track plan is all in advance? Do I have to pick the “era”, in advance? I’m into the technical aspects, somewhat into building, less so into modeling although I’m inerested in learning “some”.

Do I pick a supplier and stick with it for track, rolling stock etc. Or, just track or ??? Is there any difference? What about flex track versus snap track. I remember the days when you bought individual brass rails and used miniature ralroad spikes with a needle noise set of pliers and carefully measured out your own gauge as you built up the tracks.

If I had my ultimate druthers, I’d looked at WW II steam engines and model those types of trains with corresponding rolling stock and military vehicles. BUT, I’m also thinking of doing some kind of coal facili

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum.

Normally, I would not respond to your basic question (N vs HO) as its like the “Ford vs. Chevy” of my youth. But, you mentioned you were 59 (and not a youngster), and as I am 65, I can sure relate to your situation. Let me give you some of my experiences…

I got into HO in the early '60s, and had a few decent layouts, with the last completed one being 11x15 two level HO with DC control, which was built in 1993-4 and taken down in 2008. A new one was begun soon after and is currently under construction. It is two level, HO, but DCC (Digitrax).

I did do a stint in N scale back in 1990-91. I built a 4x8 center of the room layout, and being N scale was able to get a lot of “action & stuff” into that space. On the positive side, two things were very evident with N scale. First, the size allowed a lot more “stuff” in a given space (as compared to HO), and you could run long trains. As a Santa Fe & Illinois Central enthusiast, this was great.

On the minus side, I found the track and rolling stock just too small to work with. And, being an avid kitbuilder, there just wasn’t much out there for me. I was 46 or so at the time, so age was not a major factor THEN. Ha, it sure is now. Also, I found that I just didn’t enjoy “the trains” as I did with HO.

Regarding DCC, I fought it for years, but then took the challenge and absolutely love it - especially with sound equipped locos like my BLI 4-8-4, 2-10-2, and 2-10-4. The freedom to run locos is really something to be experienced, and the lack of all those block & reverse loop switches is great. On the downside, it is expensive. Yes, you can get in rather cheap if you have only a couple of DCC locos and a very small layout. I’ve put just over 2k into it so far (but got the funds from Eba

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Thanks for the quick response. I’ve been to the local Hobby stores and checked them out but they’ve been rather busy so I haven’t had a chance to talk to them. The local train show is coming up so I plan to attend that.

My prior (and somewhat current) other hobby is R/C (Helis & Planes) with an R/C Heli, fully equiped costing over $1K, I’m not overly concerned about cost to get started. Its more about “how” do I get started. And of course HO versus N although I’m leaving towards HO.

So, is it better to pick some kind of simple layout which is already designed and “learn” on that with maybe a 4 X 8 layout or better to imagine what I want and sue that as a base or spend some time with a kit and practise doing some modeling until I know what I can do and what I want? As you can tell, I’m really at the “start” of this. Oh and I have a number of books which I’m reading

Again, thanks.

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Disclaimer: I’m in HO. I have been since I was a teenager, and I just turned 63 this week.

The big determinant may be space. If you want the scenic elements you’ve talked about - mountains, trestles and so on, in a small space, then N is the way to go. But, if you’ve got the space to expand and build a larger layout than the 4x8 or 6x10, you might find HO more interesting.

I’ve got a 5x12 HO table layout, and I’m in the process of building an extension of roughly 19x2 1/2 feet. I don’t have that Rocky Mountain look, although it’s a pretty neat option. Instead, I’ve gone with more of a Rust Belt layout, with very little mountainous terrain and a lot of urban grit instead.

Go to trains shows. Go to local clubs. (Tell us where you live, and maybe someone will have suggestions.) See what speaks to you.

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I’m 62 and recently changed primary scales from HO to N because I wanted a home layout.

Ok.

1.Steam pickings in N is limited to a few wheel types…

2.There is a great selection of transition era diesels as well as modern diesels.

3.C55 track is a good start if you stay with the low profile wheels-the so called deep flange “pizza cutters” wheels can hit the top of the molded on “spikes”.C80 track can be used.Kato Unitrack is another choice.

4.In N you will want to stick with the better brands of locomotives and cars including the non train set Walthers former Life Like locomotives.I recommend staying with Atlas and Kato locomotives.

5.Use Micro Train(called MT) couplers for better operation.I use the Atlas Accumate and MT couplers.

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I faced this last year when I re-entered the hobby after 20 years. I went with HO for no other reason than Thats what I knew and I already had some engines and models still in good shape. The biggest advantage I see with N is you can do more with less space. Longer sweeping curves can be done with impressive scenery. The advantage of HO is I can handle the stuff easier. N is just too small for my bumbling fingers.

As for your DCC question, I would suggest starting with DCC. I just powered up mine in multiple blocks for DC. This is mainly due to I already had the stuff. If I had to buy new, I would go with either Digitrax’s or NCE’s starter sets. They go for about 150. To run multiple trains you will need two good DC transformers and they go for around 80-100 depending on what you get. You will also need controllers and other switches(atlas sells them for 10 a piece) and some complicated wiring. I easily have $250 of stuff to run trains. I can run 2-3 trains. But I already had it as well as 15 DC engines that still work. I will go DCC as soon as I save up some money.

You might want to consider building a small diorama in both scales in order to see which one works better for you. Get your hands and eyes involved in removing screws and coupling the cars, etc. Go to a train show and buy some cheap used stuff to get familiar with. I just picked up a good DCC engine for 20 bucks from a widow selling her husbands’ collection. I really wished I had enough to buy it all. She was selling 30 engines for 20 each no matter what it was.

Whichever way you go, make it yours and enjoy!

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The LHSes in hell only carry N-scale.

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Naw. They carry Nj (1:150, not 1:160) and G - and no two G items are the same scale.

If I were starting from zero today, I would go N scale and DCC in a heartbeat. Fact is, I started a long time ago (My oldest Japanese prototype locomotive is 51+ years old) and I locked myself into my present scale (1:80, aka HOj) and control system (analog DC, MZL) during the Johnson administration.

To get some ideas, find a copy of John Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation. It’s invaluable for helping the modeler figure out how to translate those mental pictures into a practical layout. IMHO, the layout you plan yourself will be far more satisfying than anything found in a book or data base of plans. Just make sure that you keep things simple to start with. Save the puzzle palace station throat with half a dozen slip switches for later.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with slip switches where appropriate)

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BCDon,

I guess that all has been said and it finally boils down to a decision you have to make. N scale sure has come along way in those 50 years and has turned into a valid choice for the serious model railroader. If you like long trains and have only a limited space available - this is the way to go. If space is not an issue and you have a knack for steam - go HO scale, as there is a lot more stuff available, than in N scale.

Personally, N scale does not give me this “railroad” feeling I want to get out of my MRR activity.

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Don’t limit your choices. You imply that you have enough space for any of the scales. I suggest you consider all the scales with commercial support Z, N, HO, S, O, G. In general smaller scales can have a higher scenery to train ratio, longer trains, more railroad. In larger scales the trains have more presence, are easier to see, the parts are bigger and easier to work with.

I started with HO and found it too small. Building a boxcar, etc was frustrating with the small parts. I moved to O. Building the boxcar was fun, but I never seemed to quite have enough space for the layout I wanted. So I switched to S and found it to be a nice combination of big enough to work with, small enough for the layout I wanted.

I second the recommendation for Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.

Good luck

Paul

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The radius in ho is about half of n scale.

In a 4x8 in ho you can use up to 21 inch radius max. but in nscale a 21 inch radious is close to 42 inch radious in ho. So going with a 4 x8 you are limited in ho but far more options in for rolling stock in n scale.

Like people have said it will be alot easier to model mountains ext in n scale. I am building a large basement layout with my dad, combineing out rolling stock ext. He is all n scale and i have alot of both. This layout will have both scales but the n scale because of space will have all the mountains and tunnels.

[quote user=“BC Don”]

Have lots of questions regardless. Should I start with DCC (which manufacturer, is there any difference?). Should I buy all parts or should I get a kit of some sort? I figure I’ll build a table but, I’m not sure of how to proceed. Do I plan out what my track plan is all in advance? Do I have to pick the “era”, in advance? I’m into the technical as

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Hi again!

You already have lots of good advice & suggestions - most of which aligns with each other. I would like to add two more items…

As I wrote earlier, I found N difficult to work with. Others may not have that problem. But, I can say this, in that as you age it just gets more and more difficult.

Second, I suggest that once you pick your scale, build yourself a relatively small layout - say 10x6 or thereabouts. Get a starter set from Digitrax or NCE (they ARE the “Ford & Chevies” of DCC), some Atlas flextrack and turnouts, some Athearn cars, and a couple of P2K DCC equipped locos. The brands are just suggestions, and my point is you don’t need the best, but DON’T get the cheapest.

If you have trouble designing your own layout, pick one from one of the many books and begin building. You have a lot of “learning” ahead of you, and frankly you will find out soon if the hobby is really for you or not. Anyway, by starting relatively small, you will develop the skills you need and find out what really appeals to you. Then, you can incorporate that layout into a larger one, or, tear it down and build that layout of your dreams.

ENJOY,

Mobilman44

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I remember when I started in scale model railroading (as opposed to ‘tinplate’) back in the mid to late 1950’s, the comment was usually “How can you WORK with anything that small?” [:P]

I’ve stuck with HO ever since, but when my father retired at 65, and he took up model railroading, he went immediately into N scale, and was happy with it for the rest of his life–his hand/eye co-ordination remained such that he was able to build a rather impressive N-scale system in his shop. So ‘smallness’ is probably in the eye–or ability–of the beholder. N scale allows you more room and longer trains, and if you’re thinking of mountains and bridges–well, there’s a lot more ‘space’ to build them, relatively speaking, especially if you’re considering the same SIZE layout in either scale.

However, you said that you were more into steam, so that’s pretty much going to limit you in N scale, at least presently. HO has an absolute plethora of steam models, everything from 0-6-0’s to 4-8-8-4’s and most adapted to run around fairly tight radii (of course, the larger the radii, the better the loco looks).

I have a 24x24’ HO garage layout set in the California Sierra Nevada mountains, which allows me to run large steam on ‘prototypical’ mountain grades with relatively generous large curves. If the same space had been devoted to N scale, I would have been been able to easily fit in at least twice the running space. And if I had gone for Z scale, I could probably have modeled everything between Sacramento and Salt Lake City, LOL! So it’s all a matter of perspective, and what strikes you.

I’m with some of the other posters–go to that train show, look at the various displays, talk to the people involved in both scales, and do a LOT of observing–and have a lot of questions. You’ll probably get the answers you need–or at least enough

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Went to a local flea market for trains. Looking at predominantly N and HO, most of the stuff selling was HO. From what I saw, I’m leaving more towards HO. From the research I’ve been doing it appears that there is still “more” HO out there and more people modeling in HO. Plus, with my desire to run steam (at this point), HO seems to give me more options.

I’m thinking of ordering a DCC system over the Internet (likely Digitrax as components seem to be readily avaiable here in Calgary) but there seems to be some good discounts over the Internet. I figure I’ll get a system (Super Chief) that can power whichever setup I’d like.

From a space perspective, my Initial layout space is a corner which I can put a 4 X 8, then from the 8’ end I can go another 4’ but ONLY 2’ deep so I’m guessing a switching yard of some kind. From the other end, I can extend the 4’ to 7’ (and in fact out to 8’ but at that point I have to pull in about a foot from the wall.

My question is, if I just look at a 4 X 8 layout to start, am I able to have the table top against the wall or do I need to be able to walk all the way around it? I’m feeling like I need to walk all the way around it. If that is the case, do I build the table with some kind of plastic glides on the bottom so that I can move it back into the corner or what?

Thanks;

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The optimum situation puts one 4 foot end of a 4x8 against a wall, with the other three sides clear access - 90 cm wid for operating space (throttle in one hand, uncoupling skewer in the other,) at least 450 cm (plus 1 cm per kilogram of modeler weight over 70kg) as a bare minimum width for construction and problem solving. Any trackage along that narrow access should be confined to thoroughfares and staging.

Of course, the great John Armstrong’s own O-scale layout had a spiral operating aisle that was only 24 inches (61 cm) wide - but John was slender. Visitors claimed that it was claustrophobic.

On my own layout (a double-garage filler with aisles from 60 cm to 90 cm wide) the maximum reach-in distance is under 80 cm, with most things that require attention 60 cm or less from the aisleway. That seems to be pretty much in line with what others have said on these forums, and it works for me.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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The 4 foot extention will not give you alot of switching room with longer cars. I had a ho layout that was 4x6 with an extention like the one you are talking about and i could put as most 3 industries, mine ended up only 2 a brewery ans a grain elevator. It alowed me to stage about 12 cars if i completly fill it completly up.

If you also have the extention if you use gliders like you say then you will need to have it firmly attached. I have mad the mistake before of not attach

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Why, that greatly limits not only what is possible, but limits how it can be expanded in the future. For your follow up about a 4 x 8 against a wall. Yes, 4’ is entirely too wide to reach across if it is put against a wall. One either needs to be able to get all the way around it or have it able to pull out from the wall for work (or even fixing a derailment).

Yes, No, and huh? A DCC kit. Usually the manufactures have a starter set that will contain (most) everything one needs to get started. The thing often not included is a raw power supply. Some starter sets do not have that. Buying a starter set will be cheaper than buying elements in a starter set separately.

No and No but it certainly helps.

I do not understand this statement.

No, No, and Yes.

Sectional track is more limiting on the track plans one can do. However there are more options available today then ever before. You can still buy rails, ties, and spikes and hand build your track if you would like.
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That’s gonna be an awfully short trip. And if the train is long, it’s likely to stretch from one destination to another on a 4-by-8. Better to imagine one or the other “off layout.”

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Whatever scale you choose, be sure to construct the layout at a higher than normal level. At 70 years of age, my 20 year old railroad has now gotten very difficullt to get under to maintain and add wiring (it’s 36" high). I chose HO because, when I started, there was very little “N” scale and I liked to build kits, paint and decal my own stuff and nothing like that was available in “N” at the time. Good luck with your new railroad and remember, your arms seem to get shorter with age so be sure you can also reach everything on top of the railroad - de-railments always happen at the hardest to reach farthest away spot. I believe that’s also an NMRA rule.

LIRRMAN