After looking at past posts that went as far back as page 13, I saw a post about the BNSF merger, and got wondering…
What if the N&W and Southern merger never happened? What if the N&W merged with, say, the Chessie System? Just want opinions on what everyone would say about this.
C’mon people, three hours and only 20 views, and no reply?
Please tell me what you think it would be like should the N&W and Southern have stayed seperate companies…
Hard to say, projecting what might have been with what actually happened is chancy business, at best. Had the N&W/Chessie merger happened, a lot of the railroad map in Ohio and Indiana would look a lot different today. Would the combined system have routed all the coal to Presque Isle in Toledo, doing away with the old PRR facility that the N&W and now NS uses in Sandusky, OH, and indeed, would the Sandusky District (old PRR) between Columbus and Sandusky still be there? Rumor was, back when merger discussions were being held, that a connection was to be built at Marion, OH, and the Sandusky District downgraded north of Marion.
Likewise, the Cincinnati District of the N&W between Portsmouth and Cincinnati would have disappeared long ago, with traffic routed to the C&O route along the Ohio River from Huntington to Cincinnati. As it is, the Cincinnati District hasn’t disappeared but it is currently served by one local and largely railbanked on the eastern end.
What would have happened to the Nickel Plate west of, say, Fostoria, would all the traffic been routed to the B&O to Chicago, making the main to Chicago via Fort Wayne superfluous? Perhaps the traffic going to St. Louis or Kansas City would have saved the route west of Fostoria, connecting with the former Wabash at New Haven, IN, or perhaps the combined system would have made a longer route by routing all traffic to the B&O at Fostoria and then to the Wabash at St. Joe, IN.
Either way, the old NKP/Cloverleaf west of Frankfort, IN, would have eventually suffered the same fate as it did.
With this merger, there would have been no New Castle District, the former PRR route out of Cincinnati, via Richmond and Muncie. Instead, there would have been eventual improvements and clearances provided for the now abandoned C&O of Indiana, and the former PRR route would have, no doubt, been abandoned, as well as a large share of the connecting NKP lines that make up th
Not so sure that NW + Chessie would have been allowed to have occured. If so, it would have been quite the powerhouse. I realize the whole eastern US was planning for the PC merger, but would ICC or Justice Dept have allowed NWChessie?
Now, to me what is more fascinating is Southern + Missouri Pacific. That merger was looked at a couple of times and would have absolutely blanketed the South from the Atlantic Coast to ElPaso/Denver. What a franchise that would have been. The domestic growth was occuring (and still is) in the Deep South and Texas. These two railroads were perhaps the best run railroads in the 70’s.
We have ended up with 2 major railroads east and 2 west with the Canadians and Kansas City Southern. Anyway you look at it, this was going to the end game, at least for now.
The question is…are there other mergers in store for the industry? If so, what will then occur?
Ed
It’s my opinion that it would have happened and the only reason it didn’t happen is because the companies withdrew their application when Penn Central filed bankruptcy. Had it happened, would the strength of their joint coal business kept them out of financial troubles or would they have been sucked into the money pits. Somehow, I think they would have been better managed than Penn Central. What would be interesting is what roads might have ended up where with what eventually made up Conrail.
The SOU/MP merger would have been a powerhouse, had that happened, we might have eventually seen one system spanning the USA. Would be great speculation to discuss which outfit would have ran that outfit, the MOPac people rose to the top of UP.
If Southern + MoPac occurred, then Chessie + NW + SCL + LN would have been a logical reaction. That would reality would really have cut PC/Conrail off at the knees. The would have had to figure out how to be the NY/NJ terminal RR.
I feel a CSX/NW merger would have been denied for the same reasons the PRR/N&W merger was denied. As Valley X stated, companies withdrew their application when PC went under. The now domino effect of railroads going under started, N&W and Southern did the smart thing. Wait until the dust settles then make a move.
Prior to that they would have been forced to take on the debt of some bankrupt road. The PC had the New Haven forced upon them and it only added to the misery.
Alot depends on what timeframe this would have taken place. If you look at the possibilites mid-1960s it’s a far different situation than a mid-1970s merger picture.
In the 1960s the PC and EL mergers had just taken place and more mergers were expected. The C&O/B&O merger had not taken place.
NW was looking hard at a merger with B&O and there were likely other roads that would have been included. Think B&O system partners such as WM, Reading and CNJ. N&W would have gained NYC access as well as Port of Baltimore through that combination.
In the 1970s the question would have been what would have been the case if NW kept hold of Dereco and further pursued mergers with a western line such as ATSF? NW would have access to the NYC market, New England and California west in that scenario.
Would Southern have gone through with any of the mergers they evaluated? MoPac, ICG and Milwaukee Road were all looked into by Southern as ways to get themselves into the Chicago market. Other possibities would have been a Southern + Cotton Belt + Southern Pacific merger to create a southern transcon system…
But in all cases the management combinations would be what would make or break the combined company. Norfolk Southern worked well because the two lines’ upper management teams meshed with minimal clashes.
The same cannot be said about any of the other possible mergers. The unique situation of two brothers each leading a major railroad into a merger with each other’s line is a one in a million opportunity in modern railroading.
But since CSX wasn’t formed until 1986, I was just wondering if the N&W merged with the Chessie System (if it was allowed) during 1983 or 1984, before the formation of CSX but after what would have been the NS merger.
I like hearing about the Soutern/MoPac scenario occuring with the N&W/Chessie scenario, which makes me wonder what it would be like for the UP since it wouldn’t have the chance to buy out the MoPac system.
Pretty interesting stuff, and lots of speculation here.
I would like to offer a couple of questions:
Would the Merger with PennCentral have happened without the presence of the Claytor Brothers in their positions with N&W and Southern, and later W.Graham’s position with AMTRAK? ( He had an excellent relationship with the Federal Government on a couple of levels)
Did that have any effect on the final merger?
Also the N&W RR was a ‘child’, in part of the Pennsylvania RR ( via stock ownership, and internal corporate departrmental relations ( Mechanical/Locomotive building, were areas of cooperation, I think) . Was that a factor of compatibility between PennCentral & N&W ? that gave them some advantage over CSX in the final outcome?
I know that the ATSF and the EL where thinking of one however the EL would have required way to much Captial for the ATSF to afford it so they stopped looking at in IIRC. Sorry these old Brain Cells can not remember what the old Agents from Streator Yard used to tell me as much as they used to. Now as for the Question Proposed.
NW/Southern had to Occur for one reason. Both the Chessie and SCL/LN where Stronger systems than the NW/Southern when apart. The Chessie N/W would not have been apporved as there was Way to much Parrel Track and the Southern Mo Pacfic the UP would have Out bid the Southern all the Way. The only Company that could Maybe have made that bid would have been the BN and they were in Bad Shape after the Frisco Merger.
So they went with the Best case they had Left. NW/ATSF might have worked for one reason. Strong Connections and decent interchange at KC via the old Wabash However over the Best mergers happened on the overall basis.
Actually, what I’ve read was that ATSF looked seriously at purchasing the EL’s Chicago to New Jersey mainline but not the rest of the railroad (it would not have been a merger). Santa Fe was interested in running intermodal trains to and from the East Coast but apparently was not interested in EL’s (limited by that point) online business…
IIRC correctly there was also some interest from a Japanese shipping (container) line in acquiring the EL mainline for the same reason. They wanted to acquire the Milwaukee road’s Pacific Coast Extension as well…
How much debt from the B&O was the Chessie System still burdened with at that time? Any debt would have scared off a profitable system. Also, in the 1980’s, particularly early on, Chessie was buying into steamship lines, gas and oil and telecommunications as a way to diversify their profits. The slow merging attitude with the B&O probably kept the Chessie from looking into another rail merger. The feds calming attitude about railroads, due to Conrail, had an about face allowing Chessie to buy into the shipping business. They may not have wanted to try taking advantage of feds generosity.
Maury Klein’s book on UP, The Reconfiguration, stated that Southern was in the process of making an offer for UP in the late 1970’s. UP had a Vice President, who had a father in law who was on the board of Missouri Pacific who told him of this. The info was reported up the chain and within a day an offer was on the table with Missouri Pacific.
The offer was accepted and there was a massive movement of managers from St. Louis to Omaha.
Isnt it interesting how both BN and UP basically were run by the managers of the companies they merged with? Frisco and Missouri Pacific provided considerable bench strength to BN and UP.
Ed
So lets assume, as was originally asked, and after some interesting insights, that the N&W did not merge with the Southern. Southern had other intentions, say the UP or some other line, would the N&W have seen its rails split up between the big guys in the same fashion that eventually split up the rails of the NYC? Surrounded by CSX and a UP/Southern merge, what could they have done to survive the competition?
Great to see all of these insightes to the original post, both from the N&W and Southern point of view, and even some of the MoPac since the Southern was thinking of merging with them.
Now let’s assume that the N&W decided to merger with a western system, not the UP, since if the Southern merged with UP, it would technically be a N&W/Southern merger. Mabye with a New England system that wasn’t suffering to bad from the gun fire and domino effect of the 1970’s, assuming there were any…
You can play ‘what if’ in history all you want. It never occured and today’s carriers are what they are today - not ‘what if’ from the past.
Unless you get into a episode of ‘Quantum Leap’ you can’t revise actual history.[:D]
Instead of that what if the Chessie+NW happened could a SOU+Seaboard System or Family Lines ended up as the South’s Penn Central?
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“Alternative History” appeared to enjoy a brief vogue in the early 1960’s and is occasionally used as a plot device for novels, “SS-GB” by Len Deighton is a well-written example. Beyond that, it serves little purpose beyond speculation since the March Of Time does not have a rewind button.