When I built my first layout, I used nails to secure the track to the roadbed. I use Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed on a plywood surface, so the nails go through the foam roadbed and penetrate the plywood, ensuring a solid surface.
I know many others use caulk instead of nails and cork instead of foam for the roadbed. And, they swear by the use of caulk.
On my current layout, I still use nails instead of caulk. In spite of all of the drawbacks to nails, the one distinct advantage is that you can remove the nail and re-install it if you need to move the track even slightly. With caulk, it seems to me that once it is applied, it is permanent.
So, what do you all do if you apply caulk to the track and then realize that the track is not perfectly aligned causing derailements? How do you realign the track once the caulk is in place?
Use a putty knife and gently work it under the piece of track in question. Assuming you used Latex caulk, you will be able to remove the roadbed from the track. You can also move the roadbed in this way as well.
If it doesn’t come loose with the putty knife try soaking the track with wet paper towels first to soften up the laytex caulk. This also works for loosening water based “painted” rail joiners
When repositioning the track I left the bed in place and added and trimed the WS roadbed as necessary. In my early track laying I used more caulk than was necessary and of course the amount of caulk used will make a difference in getting the track loose,
On my current layout I have used caulk and am very happy with the results. It doesn’t take much to hold the track down. A very small bead, spread thin with a putty knife is all it takes. You do not want enough so that any comes up between the ties.
When using caulk I’m not sure how easy it is to seperate track from WS foam roadbed. It seperates fairly easily from plywood or cork, but the foam may tear.
The drawback with nails that I am aware of is that you can pull the track out of guage if the nails are pushed in too hard. This is especially easy with the foam roadbed.
Both wil work, each has their own little “things”. I’d give the caulk a try and see how you like it.
My current layout is the first one that I have used caulk on. It is an apples and oranges type of thing. Expecting foam to hold nails is a non starter so an alternative is caulk.
Derailment problems for me have always come from unnoticed dips in the roadbed especially where they occurred going into a curve or turnout. With nails this was caused either by pushing the nail in to far and thus causing a dip or by a dip occurring over time from contraction and expansion issues and the track would bridge until that big steamer rolled over it and bingo.
Side to side alignment issues are dealt with as the track is initially laid. I never move on saying I’ll come back and fix that later. Dips in the roadbed though rare, for some reason seem to appear out of nowhere and I consider these maintenance issues.
I have had much fewer problems, less track maintenance after the initial laying using caulk than I did using nails. You only need a very, very thin coating of caulk to hold it in place and the track peels right up if it does need to be move, though I have limited experience at having to do this.
There is certainly less track movement when the entire track is held in place instead of nails at regular intervals. Maybe this is why I have had fewer issues on this layout.
This is the level I use before I caulk or nail the track down. I also used pencil marks on the glass to make sure my super elevation on curves was consistent throughout the curve.
Like you, Rich, I prefer nails, although I’m not a fan of the WS foam roadbed and use either cork or thin plywood for built-up roadbed and also lay some track directly on the 3/4" plywood sub-roadbed. While I know that the caulk will work for both cork and foam roadbed installation and for installing track on that, I like the flexibility that nails allow for minor (or major) re-alignments of the track. And while track on caulk can be lifted using a putty knife, it would seem to me to be a messy procedure to re-affix it once the track has been re-aligned, unless of course, the track is removed first, something not necessary with nails. For those bothered by the appearance of the nails, they can be removed after ballasting has been completed.
While my layout is mostly open grid with cut-out 3/4" plywood roadbed, the upper level will be done with a plywood tabletop. I may use extruded foam for landforms and have considered using it as sub-roadbed and roadbed, too, but from what I’ve seen on-line, many modellers are over-using foam, then under-utilising it.
“So, what do you all do if you apply caulk to the track and then realize that the track is not perfectly aligned causing derailments? How do you realign the track once the caulk is in place? Rich”
The most important part of the process is called “Attention to Detail” so you don’t make those kinds of mistakes. Mistakes mostly come from trying to hurry and get it done “Right Now!”. My years of experience has taught me it doesn’t pay to rush, but take your time and do it right the first time.
Laying track starts with the center-line on the table-top or surface, where the roadbed will be installed. Then the center of the roadbed must follow the center-line. That’s why the roadbed is split into two pieces. Then the center of the track must follow the center of the roadbed. I also let the track flow smoothly and follow it’s own contour (up and down) and not try and force it down into a dip, if one exists. And, practice makes perfect.
Since my roadbed, carved foam, is too thick to allow a track nail to reach the underlying plywood, I use latex caulk exclusively for adhering flex (and wood ties for hand-laid specialwork.) I ‘dry-lay’ all of my non-specialwork rails, pre-bending curves and transitions - and I am meticulous in assuring that every tie end is exactly on the guide line. As a result, little bitty adjustments don’t happen - I get it right while the caulk is still tacky.
My main reason for preferring caulk is that EVERY TIE is anchored, not just one every three inches. Thus, no ‘umps an’ ‘ollers’ (I weight the caulked track with flat steel to eliminate them) and no chance for little lateral misalignments to develop.
With me, laying track doesn’t start with the centerline. It starts with a line offset 14mm from the centerline - the outer end of an Atlas flex track tie. Much easier to keep track of when using grey caulk for an adhesive.
They keys to successful use of caulk have been mentioend several times now. ANd by ‘successful use’ I include the ability to take up some track and use it again int he event of a design change, addition, or plain realization of a track planning mistake. THIN beads. It’s then easy to lift track off with a putty knife without damaging the track.
You also get a decent working time to make sure the track is aligned properly before the caulk sets. The simple act of driving a nail can skew the track. With caulk, you can run a straightedge, or use tools like the Ribbonrail ones, or simply take the time to walk to the end and sight down the rail to make sure everything is properly aligned. Only then do I stick a few pushpins in to hold things until the caulk fully sets. On my previous layout I pulled out an entire passing siding, replaced the turnouts with straight track, and reused the turnouts elsewhere. No problems. On my current layout I’d had to pry up some track to install shims to adjust a vertical curve, no problem doing so with the gentle application of a putty knife. Th amount of caulk needed to securely adhere the track to the roadbed is incredibly small. The stuff I use comes out white and dries clear - when I spread it out the layer is so thin it looks clear already. That’s all it takes. The track will stay where you put it, come up if you want it.
I agree with you that it is better not to make track laying mistakes in the first place so that you don’t have to realign the tracks. But, easier said than done.
As doctorwayne and Randy have both pointed out, mistakes will happen and track will have to be realigned.
It sounds like the answer is to use a very thin coat on caulk so that it is easily pried up without ruining the track.
I also agree with others that Woodland Scenics roadbed has its problems because it is so pliable. I also agree that nailing, besides not looking good, is risky because if you nail too deep, you will cause dips in the track work and, worse, pull the rails closer together and out of gauge.
I appreciate all of the comments and I am leaning toward caulk over nails in the future.
I’m a traditional nails and ply guy. Changes are simple, fast and flexible. No desire personally to work with caulk. It and I have never gotten along on years and years of boat work. It always seems to go where It isn’t welcome for me in spite of my best efforts.
Once things are in place and tested I “spot weld” with just a drop of white glue before I get around to ballasting. It’s a personal working/experience thing. Just have to remember to pull all the nails after ballasting if I want to photograph scenes later.
There almost seems to be a “movement” against nailing down track or using ply instead of foam board bases these days, but the older methods still work just fine if it suits your temperment better.
If you haven’t caulked, ever, try a caulking gun and see if it’s your thing. I think you won’t really know until you try it. Some caulks have odors to it (although pretty mild) so you should see if that’s objectionable (allergies/migraines, etc.) before committing to a method.
I findthat track changes or adjustments are extemely quick with track nails on cork roadbed and doesn’t involve any clean up or waiting whatsoever before continuing your work.
It’s true that your track laying should be as perfect as possible from the get go, but if you are building an operations based layout for a crew, that crew will often suggest some changes to make things flow easier or prototypically and the nails make this practically instant for me.
I agree with the part in blue, that is EXACTLY the reason I don’t want to adhere the track down first time around with anhesive of any kind. It would be difficult to get it up to make any adjustments. I like the old school way of using track nails or spikes to hold the track down until it has had a chance to be run and inspected thoroughly. Then I can ballast it with an adhesive and remove the track nails.
I disagree that simply avoiding “rushing” to ge the track down will eliminate the need for making adjustments or relaying. Maybe there are a few people who have been laying track so long the can get it right the first, but Murphy’s law says thats probably not a good idea for most of is.
I’m not sure I’d totally agree with that, except perhaps about turnouts. On my “temporary” layout, which was up and running for around two years, I literally pinned the track straight to the foam using straight pins. BUT what I did was use TWO pins for every hole and inserted them in a “crossed” fashion-- each one angling toward the other side such that they could not pull straight out. I found that it worked very well. Far better than I would have expected or predicted before I tried it. The only area I really had much of a problem were at the turnouts-- and that wasn’t so much due to the pins as was the turnouts lifting up a bit over the frogs, which were not powered so caused the occasional stall. For some of them I tried different methods of pinning them down. The most successful was a three-pin arrangement, again each angled in a different direction. That seemed to do a pretty good job of holding them down. A few of them still had some issues so it’s not a perfect method. I don’t think I’d recommend it as a permanent method of afixing track to the layout, but if you just want to run some trains for awhile, or try stuff out before you commit to it, it works great.
When I spoke of making minor (or major) adjustments, I was speaking of a situation which I had assumed to be not something that was solely specific to me. When I first layed my track (Atlas code 83 flex with Atlas and Shinohara turnouts) I took particular care to ensure that the straightaways were actual straight and the curves smooth and continuous. After a couple of months of operation, I noted many of those formerly straight sections had developed lateral “waves”, causing trains to wobble from side to side. To remove the problem, I removed the track spikes from the straight sections and about half-way into the curves at either end (my layout is mostly curves connected by straight sections at each town. The straight track automatically re-straightened itself, with the apparently-excess length dissipating in the curves. The track was then re-spiked (with slightly widened curves) and put back into operation. Even after several months of operation, the waves failed to re-appear and the track has since been ballasted and remains as intended.
My guess is that something expanded or contracted during the initial stages of operation, and with all rail joiners soldered, something had to give. To this day I don’t know why it happened, as all material had been on-site for at least a year before layout construction began. Someone told me that the passage of electrical current through the rails released stresses introduced when the rail was formed, but that sounds a little far-fetched to me.
I must admit to preferring solid methods of fastening stuff in place, whether in full-size construction, layout work, or even when detailing rolling stock and locomotives. I’ll use glue when necessary, but prefer mechanical joints that will stand the test of time (even if I won’t [(-D] ).
Sounds like your wood contracted as it dried out. A point in favor of extruded foam, it doesn’t move.
SOmethign I did leave out, the pushpins I use to temporarily hold things in place are small enought o not interfere with a loco runnign ont he track - so I often test run a newly laid section of track before the caulk is fully set up. Any problems not caught during the aligning can be corrected right away.
For a similar problem I’d use a putty knife to loosen the track near the curves, allow the track to take a proper set without the kink, and press it back down. Odds would be pretty good the caulk would still have enough tack to hold the track in place without adding more. A year or two after the fact, I’d probably have to add a few dabs of caulk with a putty knife to refasten the track. And have to scrape off ballast as well to move the track.
Some people have latex allergies - caulk isn’t for them. Otherwise, the only caulk that smells bad is the stuff with silicon. It smells strongly of vinegar until it fully sets and should only be used in ventilated areas. But it also costs more and is entirely unnecessary (and actually can cause problems when trying to ballast the track later) for model railroad purposes. FOr sealing your bathtub, or windows - silicon lasts longer and is probably worth it. But not for the track and raodbed.
John I used 2 inch T-pins the way you did for quite a while before I caulked my track down.In fact you can see them in the photo on the previous page. I found they worked loose and I was always running around pulling them out and reinserting them. They are great for a quick temporary setup but they become a “PITA” after a while. And I used a ton of them.
I caulked my track down but not the turnouts. They so far are holding firm with nothing. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
I also agree with what Wayne said about these huge solid foam mountains. My larger ones are 31/2" wide pieces of foam stacked up 1" x 2" wood framing. In fact I just recently realized I had room for a single 15’ long hidden staging track inside of one of my hollow mountains.
Interesting comments about securing turnouts to the layout. I have some Walthers Shinohara turnouts on my layout, specifically double crossovers and curved turnouts. These large turnouts tend to “float” and flex a lot, so I use several nails to hold such turnouts in place. It surprises me that those who favor caulk don’t always use caulk on such turnouts.
I use caulk under my turnouts to hold them in position, just none under the throwbar area. I place a turnout and mark off where I need to drill holes for the switch motor and the frog wire, then remove it to drill. This gives me a good idea of where to put caulk and where to keep it away, a little bit before the throwbar, and then from the frog out both legs. Always the key is a TINY bit. How tiny? My previous layotu was 8x12 with a double track loop, multiple sidings, and a yard. All roadbed and all track except the 3 track yard were done with ONE TUBE of caulk. That’s it.
