http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/516987.html
This train is owned by NCDOT. Notice the paint job on the damaged engine. The light passenger load was probably because North Carolina was having a “snow day”. A winter storm (by southern standards lol) had moved through overnight so all the schools and many businesses were closed.
Quote from the article:
“The Piedmont, which runs each morning from Raleigh to Charlotte and returns each evening, was carrying 10 passengers, Black said. Most were taken by taxi to Charlotte, but some were picked up by friends in Harrisburg.”
10 passengers – OK, it was a off day in the Carolinas because of a storm, but 10 passengers is still miserable ridership. It would be cheaper for North Carolina to simply hire that taxi service to give them door to door transportation.
That is not a normal passenger load for the Piedmont. The train is a 4 car consist, 1 baggage and 3 coaches and is normally high enough load that NC is in the process of adding another train at mid day.
It connects Charlotte, the largest city in NC with Raleigh, the state capitol. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the US, Headquarters of Bank of America and Wachovia and a Federal Reserve Bank are here, and we all know what is going on in THAT sector right now. Several colleges are along that line.
People from the Dakotas really would be amused to see the way NC reacts to even just the threat of snow. We don’t even plow or salt the majority of roads. The interstates and some main roads are plowed or salted, but the cities just shut down and wait for it to melt. That seldom takes more than a day.
Harrisburg is a suburb of Charlotte.
We have our own set of problems with the snow. Our Interstates have gates at the entrances. When they are closed, it is a signal conditions are so bad the plows have been told to stand down, and if you get into trouble on the road no emergency vehicle is going to operate to come to your rescue. When the plows resume work, they are careful around snowdrifts as each could contain an automobile.
I’m glad the Piedmont is doing well enough to add another train. For regional trains (and perhaps for the LD ones as well) frequency seems to be one of the keys to acceptance by the public.
I understand. I am originally from upstate New York, I worked for many years in an area that gets 100 inches of snow a year. I have been in Charlotte for 15 years and am still amused that ONE inch of snow can bring the city to a standstill. Even when it snows, about once or twice a year, it is usually gone by 2 PM.
This is the Piedmont pulling into the Charlotte Station:
Notice the baggage car has not yet been rehabilitated and that is not the engine that hit the truck. NCDOT has 3 engines, and more cars being overhauled. When they are done, they will add the additional train, scheduled for sometime this spring. If 10 passengers was a normal load, they would only be pulling one coach. Notice that they day this picture was taken they were pulling four coaches.
Phoebe: You are right about snow. Here in ATLANTA everything stops with one inch and watch out for any ice Ah - la - KY this past Jan. It all comes down to being used to snow. EX: Look at the whole of Great Britian right now!!!
The average load factor on the Piedmont during FY 2008 was 43.2 per cent per passenger mile. Undoubtedly, the train carried a heavier load on certain days, probably the weekends, but this appears to be a lightly patronized train. The Piedmont lost 11.1 cents per passenger mile before interest and depreciation.
The Carolinian did better. It had an average load factor of 60 per cent and only lost .5 cents per passenger mile before interest and depreciation.
The Crescent, which loses 25.9 cents per passenger mile before interest and depreciation, had an average load factor of 50.9 per cent.
Most public transport agencies are reporting a significant decline in the number of their riders for the fourth quarter of 2008. Amtrak has not released its rider figures for the last quarter of 2008 or the first quarter of FY 2009. The decline in public transport ridership is probably due to the significant drop in gasoline prices and the impact of the recession.
Last year the Piedmont managed 64,600 passengers on a route that has another train. The most popular city pair was its endpoints, which helps in “right sizing” the consist. That is not as good as Michigan’s Pere Marquette which run a similiar distance with 109,000 passengers in 2008, but it is not bad.
Don’t worry about Sam. Sam thinks that any mass transit system that doesn’t make a profit is a waste of money and should be shut down or have the fares raised substantially so that the public does not have to contribute. While I disagree, it’s not really a complaint. A great many people feel that way about a great many programs.
“Don’t worry about Sam. Sam thinks that any mass transit system that doesn’t make a profit is a waste of money and should be shut down or have the fares raised substantially so that the public does not have to contribute. While I disagree, it’s not really a complaint. A great many people feel that way about a great many programs.”
Actually, Sam believes that intercity passenger rail should cover it variable or operating costs. I also believe that it should contribute something to the fix or capital costs, i.e. the NEC. I have never harbored delusions that passenger rail could make a profit.
Local transit is a utility. I have never suggested that it make a profit. I have, however, suggested that those who support it be aware of the costs, inasmuch as the money comes largely from people who don’t use it.
Those who ignore the costs associated with their pet projects, i.e. intercity passenger rail, either don’t know how to read a financial statement or don’t care to. They are perfectly happy to have money taken out of other people’s pockets to support their interests. Also, because they don’t pay attention to the finances, they oftentimes push for their transport solution, e.g. light rail, whilst frequently overlooking more cost effect technologies, e.g. rapid bus technology.
To imply that the Piedmont is well patronized and is the justification for adding another train between Raleigh and Charlotte is not supported by the ridership data. Neither is the claim that 10 passengers on the train that hit the truck in question is unusual. If the average load factor is 43 per cent, there are probably many days when the train carries fewer passengers than could be accommodated on a bus.
From a NCDOT press release:
RALEIGH — Gov. Mike Easley today announced that a third intercity passenger train between Raleigh and Charlotte will be added to the current service to help meet growing demand as well as ridership increases. The new train service will run at midday, with departures from Raleigh and Charlotte.
From October 2007 to April 2008, ridership was up more than 22 percent with 197,126 travelers riding either the Piedmont or Carolinian trains. On the Piedmont (trains 73 and 74) ridership was up almost 26 percent from 28,309 to 35,681 passengers; the Carolinian (trains 79 and 80) was up 18 percent from 136,358 to 161,445.
I absolutely stand by my claim that 10 people is not a normal load for the train and I do not believe that a bus could handle the passenger load or for that matter that the people who ride the train would take a bus.
I was on both #80 and #73 today- On #73 we had probaly a 90% load in 3 coaches coming into Charlotte. With turn over between Raleigh and Greensboro, in particular, we probaly had over 100% for the whole trip.
I have worked #79/80 for 4 years now and February is a very, very slow month on both #73/74 and #79/80. Come back in March when the CIAA and ACC tournements are in Charlotte. Extra cars those weeks.
Despite the comment about the bus, if there was not a train, these people would be driving, not on the 'hound or Carolina Trailways.
Many people in NC are looking forward to the mid-day train, including the Duke Power execs. that were on #80 today to Raleigh, after all, we are the ones paying. Sam can only speak for TX.
I quoted figures from Amtrak’s management and operating reports. If you think that they are wrong, you should contact Amtrak and ask management to correct them.
I don’t have to live in North Carolina to be able to read a financial and operating report.
You have no idea whether the people on the train would drive, fly, or take a bus if the train did not exist. Your view is speculation.
People have a tendency to generalize specific situations, i.e. projecting a high load factor on one day to every day or vice versa. Again, the average load factor on the Piedmont in FY 2008 was 43.24 per cent. The train carried an average of 90 passengers over at least one segment of the trip.
The average number of passengers on the Piedmont were approximately 55 per cent of the capacity of one U.S. Airways flight between Raleigh and Charlotte.
What would happen to the load factor if the 11.1 cents subsidy per passenger mile, before interest and depreciation, was eliminated? In
Ralph:
Aren’t you glad people in Texas don’t get to decide what transportation options we have in North Carolina?
Aren’t you glad that I can recognize unsupported opinions (puffery) and try to set the record straight with facts published by Amtrak or other authoritative organizations.
If you don’t have any factual information to challenge my posts, the best strategy is to say nothing. Taking a swipe such as this is uncalled for.
The guy from Dakota was questioning the load factor on the Piedmont. I was responding to him. Not to you!
Speaking of Amtrak, according to its year end FY 2008 operating report, the number of passengers carried on the Piedmont in 2008 was 65,941. This is quite different from the governor’s figures. I’ll go with Amtrak’s numbers.
Actually your most recent post was not to the guy in South Dakota, it was to Mathewsaggie, who lives right here in the Charlotte area. From your perch in Texas you told him that his observations didn’t square with your statistics and were therefore wrong. We actually ride the trains that in your opinion should be replaced by a bus. We can see first hand how many people are on the trains. Unlike the USAir flight from Raleigh to Charlotte, the train makes stops in smaller towns along the way. There is no USAir service from Charlotte or Raleigh to those small towns. It is unrealistic to expect every seat to be occupied for the entire trip from end to end, so of course the seat mile occupancy does not approach 100% from end to end. In fact, if every seat is occupied when the train pulls out it probably means someone was turned away. Unlike the airline, when the Piedmont is over booked, they don’t turn people away, they put on another car. We like and use our trains and our light rail, and we don’t care whether or not you approve.
My initial response was to Dakota Guy’s post re: number of people and load factor on the Piedmont. I further responded to Mathewsaggie, who posted impressionistic data about the load factor on the Piedmont; that is to say, personal impressions as opposed to hard data regarding the loads on the train.
Again, the statistics are not mine. They are Amtrak’s official statistics. Unless you or Mathewsaggie rode the train both ways every day and did a count of the passengers, you would not know how many people ride the train. Even a train conductor, who does not work every train every day, would not have a complete picture of the load factor.
With a 43.2 per load factor one can be assured that every seat is not occupied every day. In fact, based on these st
Sam,
To praphrase Voltaire, I may not always agree with what you have to say but I always respect your right to say it. Particularly since your opinions are always backed by facts and figures that I’ve never had reason to doubt. However, I don’t think the majority of LD train passengers would consider bus travel except as a last resort. There’s another fairly significant group who either dislike flying or are unable to make a LD auto trip (lack of a car, health limitations, etc.).
A couple of years ago the wife and I were waiting at Marshall to board the Eagle for a trip to Chicago when we were told it had burned out a traction motor and Amtrak was substituting busses fot the train that evening. We hastily requested a refund for our tickets and headed back home to Shreveport. We hit the road about 3:00 am the next morning and drove straight through in order to get there in time for a family wedding rehersal dinner that evening. Thank God the breakdown happened around Longview and not after we were on board the train and would have no option but to ride a bus all the way to Chicago.
Mark
I think you have to take a longer view with respect to what NC is doing and why. The issue NC has is that the I-85 corridor from Raleigh/Cary through Greensboro and Highpoint down to Charlotte is becoming congested, despite some big-time investment in more lanes on I-85. In order to keep the corridor economically healthy and growing, they decided that it would be a better investment of their infrastructure money to develop a rail corridor instead of plowing too much more money into I-85. Perhaps, part of the decision for rail was based on the traffic inducement that comes with suburban sprawl when you build highways and the choice of rail was to help shape land use and preserve existing highway capacity to some extent - I don’t know.
NC has chosen an incremental approach, with small investments in equipment and ROW to increase capacity and decrease trip times on the route. A key part of being able to get this work done is that they own the railroad and they had pretty good leverage with NS when renewing the lease a few years back. This has helped them move ahead faster than others.
Raleigh to Charlotte is a nice corridor, but all by itself, it’s potential is rather limited. Only when it gets to part of a useful network will it really have a chance of covering it’s costs. Unfortunately, the surrounding states either have been dragging their heals, stubborn, asleep, or all three, so NC is stuck waiting for their neighbors to get busy. The biggest help would be getting VA to get started on getting Raleigh connected to the NEC with their piece of the SEHSR project. The Macon/Atlanta/Charlotte study showed much better ridership when this piece was completed versus without. It would certainly help if SC thought that Greenville and Spartansburg were worthy of continued growth. I-85 through SC is the least modern and toughest piece of the road to navigate. And, it would help if s
Oltmannd:
Most of the time, the Piedmont and Carolinian are enjoying decent loads. There, of course, better times than others. When the State Fair is open, both of those trains add an extra stop at the fairgrounds. I-85 here in the Charlotte area is 8 lanes in some places. They just completed yet another big widening project, but they are also spending a lot of money upgrading the track between Charlotte and Raleigh.
While the anchor of environmental regulations is dragging them down, VA and NC are working on the SEHSR project:
http://www.sehsr.org/fieldwork.html
http://www.sehsr.org/railandhywdesign.html
That just released study on extending it to Macon via Atlanta is the first thing I have seen on that segment that didn’t start with “eventually”, and I think it’s a great idea. I can’t imagine why it was not included in the original plan. I suspect it had something to do with SC’s lack of enthusiasm. Right now the only train service between Charlotte and Atlanta is the Crescent, which comes through Charlotte at aprox 2 AM in both directions, and the Crescent doesn’t go through Raleigh. Perhaps it would be a good extension for the Carolinian until the SEHSR is completed.