NCE Powercab & Powershield....... stuck alittle at Stage one

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Ok, had to come upstairs from the layout, didn’t want to screw things up right off the bat…

so have some questions that might unconfuse me from the start!!!

I have the NCE Powercab, along with the NCE Powerhouse Booster and the PSFour…

well I have gotten as far as getting the face plate mounted for the Powercab & the Power supply for the Powerhouse setup… then I just looked at everything and felt my head spinning!!!

Do I run the main track bus wires from the face plate or from the Powerhouse? I see that both have spots for the track wires…

And… do I then run the 2 main wires from whichever or both to the powershield and then from the PSfour I separately solder the wire into the 4 sections and then go from there? ( meaning divide the layout into 4 sections)

I was reading the directions and I was getting confused… is there a simple basic description somewhere??? photos would be great!! hahaha

one more… yes one more… How does everyone else mount the PSfour on their layout?

thanks again as usual!!!

Mike

2

If you have the full Powerhouse unit and a power supply - then you PowerCab will function just like a ProCab. The track feeds attach to the output of the Powerhouse. You do not attach the PowerCab’s power supply to the face plate.

You might be better off getting one of the regular NCE face plates and connecting that to the Powerhouse. Put the PowerCab’s face plate and power supply at your bench and you can use the PowerCab features to program and test locos at the bench, them move to the layout and plug in there and you have a ProCab to run trains.

–Randy

3

You should have received a diagram from Tony’s. If not, here’s where you can get it:
http://www.tonystrains.com/download/PS1-2-4-120405.pdf

I don’t have the PowerCab, I have the older PowerHouse Pro. So I’m not sure about the “panel” you’re talking about. But you wire to the inputs on the Powershield, then to the track. (I’ve got two PS/4s and two PS/revs).

What you have is the equivalent of FOUR of the PS/Ones shown on the first diagram, or TWO of the PS/2s shown on the second page.

Note that the PS/4 is actually two PS/2s on the same card. This means you must connect power to TWO inputs, in sections 1 and 3; or jumper from the bottom of the second to the top of the third. At the top of page 4, among all sorts of other stuff, are the instructions for this.

And yes, the whole point of a PS/4 is to have (or be able to have) 4 separate sections. You can wire your whole layout to one set of outputs, especially to start, but in the long run you’ll be better off, much better, with more than one section (also called “Power Districts”.

There are two main reasons for this: first, if you run a lot of sound-equipped engines and/or a lot of lighted passenger cars, you may start tripping the PS if they’re all in one district.

Second, if you have a derailment, wiring problem, or, as we’ve all done on occasion, left a metal tool or wire sitting on the rails, it won’t affect the rest of the layout, and it’ll be easier to find the problem since you know what area it is.

How to divide your layout is not an exact science, and depends on what you have and how you operate.

I have a large classification yard that’s one district; an engine servicing area that’s a second district; the mains are a third; a passenger station that’s a fourth; a hidden staging yard is fifth; and industrial areas

4

Mike,

Randy has given you a concise and correct answer. You can NOT use the PCP (i.e. Power Cab port or “powered”) panel that came with the Power Cab to hook your Powerhouse Pro and Power Cab together. You must use a UTP (i.e. Universal Throttle port or “unpowered”) panel to do that instead.

Since the Power Cab is the command station, booster, and throttle rolled up into one, the Power Cab supplies the power to the track. When the Power Cab is used with the Powerhouse Pro (a command station), the track power is then supplied by the Powerhouse Pro and the Power Cab becomes just another throttle.

However, you will STILL need to use your Power Cab with your PCP panel in order to program your locomotives on the programming track. And the PCP panel must be completely isolated from your Powerhouse Pro to do this. Programming on the main can still be performed using the UTP panel.

Here’s the sequence for connecting your Powerhouse Pro and Power Cab to your layout:

  1. Connect the wall transformer to the Powerhouse (PH) Pro WITHOUT plugging it into the outlet y
5

One quick note about the PSTwo or four… the power divisions aren’t actually all isolated… only one rail of each is… I know this the hard way… trying to use an ohmmeter and darnit if one side was not always connected DESPITE gaps!!! Anyways, below is the email I got from Tony’s when I asked (they always have GREAT service…)

Brian:

The circuit breakers only open one leg of the track circuit. This is to try to keep the cost within a reasonable range. As a result, you will find one side is connected straight through and hence is common on all units. The other side of the breaker has the switches and will be isolated for each breaker when the switches are open.

Larry

Tony’s Train Exchange

Just thought this might save you hours of troubleshooting (and disconnecting wires, extra gaps, etc) that drove me nuts!!! Good luck.

Brian

6

[quote user=“Pondini”]

You should have received a diagram from Tony’s. If not, here’s where you can get it:
http://www.tonystrains.com/download/PS1-2-4-120405.pdf

I don’t have the PowerCab, I have the older PowerHouse Pro. So I’m not sure about the “panel” you’re talking about. But you wire to the inputs on the Powershield, then to the track. (I’ve got two PS/4s and two PS/revs).

What you have is the equivalent of FOUR of the PS/Ones shown on the first diagram, or TWO of the PS/2s shown on the second page.

Note that the PS/4 is actually two PS/2s on the same card. This means you must connect power to TWO inputs, in sections 1 and 3; or jumper from the bottom of the second to the top of the third. At the top of page 4, among all sorts of other stuff, are the instructions for this.

And yes, the whole point of a PS/4 is to have (or be able to have) 4 separate sections. You can wire your whole layout to one set of outputs, especially to start, but in the long run you’ll be better off, much better, with more than one section (also called “Power Districts”.

There are two main reasons for this: first, if you run a lot of sound-equipped engines and/or a lot of lighted passenger cars, you may start tripping the PS if they’re all in one district.

Second, if you have a derailment, wiring problem, or, as we’ve all done on occasion, left a metal tool or wire sitting on the rails, it won’t affect the rest of the layout, and it’ll be easier to find the problem since you know what area it is.

How to divide your layout is not an exact science, and depends on what you have and how you operate.

I have a large classification yard that’s one district; an engine servicing area that’s a second district; the mains are a third; a passenger station that’s a fourth; a hidden staging yard is fifth

7

ordered the face plate…

thanks for the info, think i can handle it!!! hahahaha

one more thing… how did everyone mount there PSFour to their layout?

thanks

Mike

8

1 - Yes

2 - Some

On my fairly large double-track main, which is all in one power district to simplify signal wiring, they’re set at the max. I used to run 2 to 4 sound locos and 15 or so lighted passenger cars in that one district. (I’ve since removed the passenger car lights, so could probably remove one of the jumpers).

Ditto the passenger station section.

Others, including the loco service area, have either the default or only one current jumper (JP3), even though there are several sound locos there, because there aren’t more than 1 or 2 actually running at a time, and all are set to come on only when addressed. At idle and quiet, they do draw a bit of power, but not much.

I do have all my delays (JP4) set (some with one jumper, some with both). As I understand it, that allows the initial “surge” to charge-up all the capacitors.

Are you saying that a single QSI loco would trip your PS/1 at it’s default (4.3 amps, I think)? Is this true even with the JP4 delay jumper(s) set? That doesn’t seem right, even at power-up, which I’m told is when they draw the most current. I’ve got 7 QSIs (all in BLI locos), 6 Tsunamis, 4 older SoundTraxx, and a LocSound. Granted, they don’t all run at once, much less in the same district, but I can

9

I set the delay on mine to 30ms (JP3 3-4) and I often run anywhere from 4-6 Altas and BLIs off of one output of a PS4 breaker. I set JP4 to 5.6A per output with my 8A booster and 4.3A with the 4A booster. I’ve not had any problems with BLIs or Atlas Golds. If you set the breaker trip curent higher than your booster output, then you run the risk of a short hitting the booster causing it to trip and then taking out everything connected to it instead of the PS4 output only. This is self-defeating for even having a breaker and should be avoided.

I mount my PS4s on standoffs on the back of my control panels. Here’s a couple pictures.

The PS2s and PS4s do indeed have a common output but it is limited to per PS2. The PS4 is really 2 - PS2s on the same circuit board. So the common output is between the 1 and 2 outputs and between the 3 and 4 outputs. I have validated this with an ohm meter. If you want true isolation on both output leads then you’ll need to stick with all PS1s. However, opening one leg of an output with a breaker is standard practice for most protection systems. If there were a common lead to both outputs, then it would be expected that both output leads would be protected.

10

soaking all the info in… and just sitting here going… jumpers??? well will learn as I go…

Mike

11

YES, that is exactly what I’m saying. With only ONE proto2000 QSI quantum sound loco, I have to set the jumpers to the maximum current (7.2amps) in order for the thing to run. Granted my NCE powercab unit is only supposed to put out 1.7amps, but it does not seem to have the problem, as I have bypassed the PSONE and have no problem with my powercab system. As a matter of fact I tested my NCE powercab system (1.7amps) and found that if I run 3 soundtraxx locos then it trips. But I have no problem running two soundtraxx locos with my NCE powercab. I have not tested other sound loco’s with my QSI sound loco yet, but I assume I should be able to run at least 2 sound locos with no problem.

That is all I’ll ever run on my small 11X7 pike…2 sound locos’. That why I haven’t bothered to purchase the NCE booster yet.

12

They are covered in the instructions. They’re on the right side of the PS. And you probably don’t need them to get started (another good reason to make them fairly easy to remove).

And yes, I’d prefer, say, dip switches or something else (that would no doubt raise the price). I hate soldering onto a circuit board, but haven’t messed one up . . . yet!

13

Very strange. I’d agree that you ought to be able to run at least 2 or 3 sound locos. And the two SoundTraxx being ok makes me wonder about the P2K loco.

What model of loco is it? And, if you remember, did it trip the breaker immediately, on power-up, or when running? And after you set the delay jumper(s)?

The only thing I can think of, rather farfetched, is that particular loco might have either a problem with the motor drawing too much current, or having an extra-large capacitor, perhaps to help deal with dirty track.

Do you know somebody with another QSI loco who’d come test it on your layout? That might narrow it down.

One of the problems is, you can measure the current draw of an idling or running loco, especially with one of Tony’s RRampMeters, but not for the fraction of a second during power-up when it charges the capacitors (or else our eyes can’t see the very momentary display).

14

My engine is a wa

15

I’m still confused, but now I see part of that was my fault! Let’s start over.

There are two sets of jumpers for each section; JP3, at the top, whicn controls response time: one-tenth (default) to four-tenths of a second. These help when first powering-up, or if there’s a momentary “inrush” of current.

The other set, JP4, at the bottom, controls the current at which the breaker will trip, after the delay time: (4.3 by default, up to 8.3).

When I first installed these, I started with the JP3s. That alone cured several sections. Only then did I start on the JP4s. And I had no QSIs at the time, only the older SoundTraxx decoders and lighted passenger cars. That’s why I’m wondering if setting one or more of the JP3 jumpers might help your situation as well.

I suppose it is possible that Tony’s didn’t send the proper “low-power system” version. I have no idea what’s different (it’s new since I bought mine), and I can find no mention of it in any of the documentation. Give them a call (and don’t hesitate to ask for Tony himself) – we might all learn something!

16

I maxed my JP3’s out when I went to a proto 2000 E9 with soundtraxx sound. that engine draws a lot of current. The other two loco’s, an Atlas and a Kato with soundtraxx sound had no problems.

I’m not too worried about it. It works for now. If it stops working, I’ll just disconnect from the PSOne and then give Tony a call.

17

Jeff,

is the PS4 laying down in the photo?

did set up the test track/programming track yesterday and had 2 locos running on it… so am happy…

Mike

18

Yes, it is lying down. It is mounted on four 1.5" 4-40 standoffs. You see some just to the right of the PS4 for mounting the board with the Digitrax decoders. I use 1.5" in order to give enough clearance for LEDs and switches that are mounted to the front of the control panel.

19

Funny all the reset problems with QSI. I guess there really is a reason to go with the Zephyr [:D] WHen I was trying to max out my system, I had: 2 PCM Loksound T-1’s, 1 BLI QSI M1A, a Soundtraxx DSD-100LC with a dummy load (resistor) for a motor, 2 P2K non-sound GP7’s, a P2K non-sound S-1, and a Stewart non-sound DS4-4-1000 all running at the same time. I deliberately shorted the track to see what would happen when power was restored - everything came back to life, no runaways, no surge from the sound locos preventing the reset, etc. Maybe that’s why I haven’t bothered to buy any breakers and set up power districts - I’m afraid it will stop working so well.

–Randy

20

Well, its not really the particular brand of DCC system, its the PSOne power shield circuit breaker that seems to be the culprit. I can run stuff fine on my NCE powercab without all this stuff, but thought it was prudent to do so. Now I’m not so sure if I wasted 40 bucks on a circuit breaker I may not have needed.[banghead]