I have learned a lesson about masonite and tape & mudding… don’t use plastic tape! (The type that looks like a plastic grid found in the wall aisle at the big orange store) It won’t absorb moisture and therefore won’t expand / contract with the wood and the regular typical humidity fluctuations which occur. After going to great pains to get all the backdrops up, cover the seams and get them painted. After a month, I went down to look at the layout and discovered to my complete dismay that all of the seams on which I’d used the plastic tape had “unzipped” right down the middle!! On the other side of the wall, where I’d used paper tape instead, fared much better, though it is still slightly cracked-- though I don’t think that’s from moisture, as not all of the paper seams have cracked, its only a few.
So anyway-- I have a number of 50-foot vinyl flashing rolls I would like to just laminate over the backdrop and be done with it. The only issue is that I’ve never done anything like that before and am wondering if anybody else here has and might have any advice or “gotchas” to be concerned about.
I have several tubs of contact cement-- the green cans of “weldwood” cement that you find at the orange box store. I did a search on the Net and wasn’t able to find anything that looked appreciably better-- it would be nice to have some working / positioning time to make the job easier, but I didn’t see anything that really fit the bill.
Also I’m probably (nearly 100% certainty) going to end having to do this by myself, so there are a number of logistical factors I’m mulling over-- not the least of which is the cement bonds on contact and I don’t think is going to permit much, if any, working / positioning time. So I’m expecting that once its stuck, it’s stuck, regardless of it’s position. And being a 50-foot long roll makes me wonder what kind of handling / positioning issues I’m likely to have. I did a dry run and stretched it out around the back drop. (Just for info, the b
First, the mud may have been in too thin a layer over the tape. I would re-tape using the paper tape and more mud. And yes, I know it will make a hump. But what you can do is make the mud area wider and feather it in. But I have worked with dry-wall quite a bit, and I know it’s not for everyone.
Moving on. . . . . if I were to try vinyl, I would look into wall-paper-paste. I understand that it has changed over the years, and it might give you the working time you need. If good contact is not maintained over the whole surface, it will bubble, and to me, contact cement is not going to give you complete surface contact. You are going to miss some spots.
I really like the way vinyl comes out when finished. 50’ rolls should really look nice. On my last layout that just came down I used it for the first time. I will use this from now on. Like anything there are learning curves, tips and would have /should haves so you are right in your line of questioning.
Should I completely coat the back of the vinyl with the glue, along with the masonite?
I did it this way and found that doing so transfered every little imperfection into the vinyl for all to see. When I do it next time I will use it this way as you stated here
…should I do a strip along the top and bottom and some spots here and there in the middle…
I did do this in a few spots and I was happier with the results. Spring clamps will hold the top edge well. Be sure not to have them too strong or it compress the vinyl during the drying causing “spots”. Enough clothes pins might even work. I used a weighted 2 x 4 to press the bottom in while it dried. I would like to try dabs of hot glue next time to hold it place while the Elmer’s glue dries for the long term hold on the bottom and maybe even the top. I have tried white glue, yellow glue and caulk and found I like the white glue best
So you prefer the Elmer’s better for that? How long does it take to “take hold” and then dry? The vinyl is obviously non-porous, while the masonite is.
Right now, in my dry run, I opened it up and have just used spring clips, like you said, to hang it from the top of the masonite, and aside from “curtaining out” just a little because there is nothing to hold it up against the backdrop, it seems to hang okay.
I definitely like the idea of using something with a little more positioning time. Not to mention if it all goes bad, I could probably pull the vinyl away from the masonite as long as it hasn’t set for too long. And, as it happens, I already have a huge brand-new jug of Elmers handy. Although I think, from memory, that its the yellow and not the white-- but it might be white… maybe I should get a better memory!
One of the nice thoughts about the Elmers is that I could leave it hanging with the clips, and then just roll a little back, apply the glue, and reapply the clips and add a little bit of weight, as you suggested, and then move on to the next section. That might make it easier to deal with.
You say you did something similar to this before… how well did it adhere to the masonite? Is that something I’ll need to worry about? Or once it’s set up it will be sturdy enough and I won’t need to worry about it?
Thanks for your reply and suggestions, looking forward to more info if you have it!
If I were to use wallpaper paste, how well do you think it would adhere? This is plain vinyl flashing-- not sure what mils, certainly less than 1/16 inch thick, probably less than 1/32 inch. It doesn’t completely fold under its own weight, but it does sag a bit. It does not have any fabric or paper backing, it is meant originally (I think) for an outdoor application, such as skirting a trailer (maybe??) or some such.
Secondly, how long do you think it might take to “take hold” and set up / dry ??
Thanks for your reply in my Vinyl Roll Backdrop thread, you sound like you have some experience using the stuff. I am curious, if you don’t mind my picking your brain a little, about your experience with it…
– Did you install it by yourself or did you have help?
– What size rolls (length & height) were you working with? Was it stiff or about the same as what I’ve got?
– In your post you talked about Elmer’s glue… I read it to mean Elmer’s white glue-- but another poster suggested that perhaps you meant Elmer’s Contact Cement, would you clarify this just to be certain?
– How long did it take you to put up your backdrop? Were there any issues aside from what you’ve already mentioned that came up in the process?
– Was it easier to start at one end and work your way around, or start in the middle and then back out to each end? (This second idea is what I’ve been mulling over to help reduce the effects of misalignment / slight grade if I hang it a little crooked.)
– Did you have any difficulties in painting it? I’m assuming regular old acrylics / latex will work fine? I’m planning to airbrush (paint-sprayer) paint it this time instead of rolling it on like I did last time.
– Do you have any photos of you installing it? Or after you installed it? I’m curious to see your progression and results…
Thanks for all your help and advice, I really appreciate it.
Hi, John. Not sure if my method of installing vinyl runner for a back drop will be any help to you. I put mine up by myself, the bench work was already built. My roll was 3’ x 50’. I built a frame for the back drop, set the roll on a board spanning the L girders and starting at one end, simply stapled the vinyl to the frame. I kept the vinyl tight, but not stretched. I made plywood forms to cove all the corners. I used paintable caulk for the joint between the vinyl and luan ceiling. I used spackling to cover the staples. Then I painted the whole thing with latex paint. DJ.
Many years ago in a “Galaxy far far away”, I used to do quite a bit of Formica (plastic lamination). Of coarse the Formica kitch/ bath tops have all but gone by the wayside w/ all the newer more favorable products my coustomers want.
The Elmer’s is an OK product for their contact cement, however, This is a permanant bond you want. I would use Formica brand "non flamable"contact cement. Liguid nail also has their version, not the thick wall bond but the contact cement.
You would need to coat both surfaces, let dry and then apply. As you mention, you have one shot at this. Any misalignment, wrinkle etc and your done. Dry fit the section and work with a comfortable length. Give yourself reference marks for exact alignment, even if blue tape etc is used. The first vertical placement is crucial. No matter how good you are at placing and rolling out, you will start to run off. Do allow for this and trim afterwards. Remember, the longer the panel the more chance to run off.
When using contact cement for this purpose, you need to know approximate drying time and glue absorbtion, if any. Of coarse the vinyl will not absorb, but the masonite/ backdrop may. This easily done by a test sample. Since the vinyl we know won’t absorb at all this is coated first, the the backdrop. Roll on w/ the specific 9" roller (looks like carpet backing) and work quickly and spead evenly. I am used to coating flat surfaces and it is much easier than the vertical backdrop. Be prepared for drippings and some minor stringing- protect anything under the backdrop.
You will know when the surfaces are ready by the “Paper Bag” trick. An old timer showed me this. You rip off a piece of brown paper bag and periodically press into the glue. When the bag doesn’t stick but you feel only a slight “tack/ pull” under moderate pressure then it is ready. This will require a few people to place. A rubber roller will aid in smoothing out, however, a cloth rapped around a block of wood will suffice to smooth and
Happy New Year John, pick a way although pickings might be slim. Sorry about the typos in the e mail - it just sent it at one point and I didn’t have a chance to read what I typed so this might be a better read. This also has a little more in it.
– Did you install it by yourself or did you have help? Just me
– What size rolls (length & height) were you working with? Was it stiff or about the same as what I’ve got? I got a 12’ x 12’ long roll and cut into 24" widths on the chop saw. The installed vinyl was 24" on 30" back drops (the bottom was going to be hidden under scenery an d there was no need to waste material under there) Next time no more than 18".
– In your post you talked about Elmer’s glue… I read it to mean Elmer’s white glue-- but another poster suggested that perhaps you meant Elmer’s Contact Cement, would you clarify this just to be certain? I started with caulk but it caused imperfections to bleed through and be seen. Also there were glue glob spots. This may have been due to it being in the garage. It may have been too cold for the caulk to spread thin enough. I did use a seam roller on it too to make sure I had good adhesion. I then tried using yellow construction glue thinned just a tad like it was wall paper paste. This too caused imperfection to show through. It held well so don’t make a mistakes as there are no do overs this way, you will have to replace the boards it is attached to also then. I then tried white white glue straight just along the top and bottom with dab or two in between. This allowed it hang free but secure. I never tried contact cement. I did do several sections over as I corrected mistakes and had the material on hand.
– How long did it take you to put up your backdrop? Were there any issues aside from what you’ve already mentioned that came up in the process? You have to watch for curling or cupping on the edges. I used clamps for this but wound up with a few blemishes as the clamp
John, I’m not sure how the wall paper paste would adhere or even work. I don’t have any experience with it, and just thru it out there as an alternative suggestion that you may want to look at, since wall paper these days is more vinyl than anything. I think it would give you more working time and be more forgiving than contact cement though.
The only other thing I can add after other postings is If you need additional working time and still want a good solid bond on the sheet vinyl is to use Wall Bond. this is a product that is used to bond formica to wall/ splash, paneling, Marlite or FRP (fiberglas). It will work fine on a heavier vinyl. It is solvent based, so I would test a small sample first as there could be a small chance that it could affect the vinyl before setting/ drying. It is applied w/ a small “V” notched trowel to the wall/ backdrop and then place vinly. It has a decent open/ working time and allows to reposition if nec. As I say, do check that it doesn’t affect the vinyl. There is also a bulk Gallon version of the WallBond that is plastic safe. Used for acylic shower panels and is quite similar to the “Foam” safe Liquid Nails that many use here. Only drawback is that the larger quantities can be somewhat $$$ as compared to regular wallbond.
If you have a countertop/ laminate specialty shop near you, stop in and ask their opinion. When you explain what you are doing, I find most shops to be extremely helpful even if they aren’t into trains themselves. Must be that “Interest” factor. about trains in general. You may be able to buy a more comercial product directly from them also.
I’m going to be installing this over top of masonite, since its already there-- my previous effort with the cracked seams. Even though it seems like its a bit more work, I’m pretty sure I’m going to prefer the continuous vinyl run when its done.
Thanks for the tip about WallBond, I’ll definitely look into that. It might be a nice alternative to contact cement. Since in all probability I’m going to be doing this by myself, I sure would feel better about something that offered a little more working / positioning time and ability to correct mistakes. I know I’ll probably make some!
I might try out a practice stretch with staples to see how that could work out. I looked at DJ’s pictures very closely (plus some of the others on his web site) and I don’t see any evidence of staples at all. So either you just can’t spot 'em, or else he’s done a bang-up job of covering 'em up-- either way, it sounds like it might be worth a little time to see how well that could work.
I do have the Joe Fugate video you mentioned, I had forgotten about that-- thanks for reminding me. I’ll dig that out and see if that would help me on the painting. I was having trouble with that before. Especially in selecting the colors that I liked / thought looked best.
Won’t it be fun when someday you can get long rolls of OLED flexible displays and have any kind of sky you want? That’ll be a nice improvement!
You guys have given me plenty of good info to think about and have made me feel 100% better about giving all this a go…
Well, over the weekend I had some time to experiment a little with laminating the vinyl rolls. I thought I would come back here and update the thread to let anybody else who might be interested know about my experience (so far).
The information and suggestions provided by the previous respondents really came in handy and I incorporated several of their tips. Particularly, I started out by putting some boards around the layout at the height of the bottom of the backdrop, to give myself a shelf to work on and to support the roll while I worked. That was a good suggestion and made things much easier, one (or two) less things to deal with. The trick is gonna be figuring out how to do the same for the upper deck. But fortunately, that’s next week and not today
My biggest fear was whether or not I would be able to have any working time using contact cement-- so initially I chickened out and tried Ratled’s suggestion of white glue-- actually I used Elmer’s wood glue, but surprisingly enough, it worked pretty well. I could easily recommend that as a method for laminating the backdrop. I took regular stock Elmers wood glue, poured out a big glop in a paint tray and thinned it down a bit with some water. It took a few attempts to kinda get the mixture figured out. Just a little water is all you need, maybe 1 part water to 9 parts glue-- I wasn’t measuring, but I’d say that’d be about right. Certainly not a lot more than that. Initially I tried about half-n-half and that worked pretty well but it was very messy to get on the wall-- splashed and splattered everywhere. I found just a little water made it spread on the wall a lot easier without making such a huge mess. Nevertheless, I DO recommend a good drop cloth, particularly if you’re working over top of something that matters.
One of my initial concerns was my ability to handle the big roll by myself while I did the gluing. That turned out to be somewhat less of a problem than I feared, but still a hassle. And I would not
Yeah, I thought about that too. But in this case, the vinyl flashing roll is too thick. It’s not thin and stretchy like what you’re probably thinking of. Its stiff and wobbly. Not quite thick / strong enough to stand unsupported, but almost. Probably between 1/128th & 1/64th inch (according to my calipers)… whatever that is in mils… 7 to 15 or so…?
If the vinyl has one side smoother than the other, I would place the smooth side in toward the masonite. This will help in giving the base/ primer coat a little more tooth rather than priming on a very smooth glossy surface. Zinzer 123 waterbase primer is an excellent choice for the base/ priming. You can find it @ any Big Box or paint store. Runs about $18/ gal and I would have them tint to a light gray blue. I use this primer on Azek exterior trim board quite regularly, haven’t had any problem even after many years exposed to radiacl temp changes any weather here in New England. It should provide a good solid bonded coat for the vinyl.
