Need advice: Considering Brass

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I’m at the point where I think I’m going to have to go with brass to complete my collection of HO steam. But I’ve heard nothing but horror stories about brass. Poor runners, noisy, parts that fall off and nearly impossible to get back on neatly. The open frame motor ones are also high current which is bad for DCC decoders. Some I’m a little reluctant to step in given the horror stories. Plus I have NO idea what a reasonable value is.

So what’s your experience in brass? And what should I stay away from or look for?

2

This implies that you have some specific models in mind? I am not expert in brass, but like you have considered dabbling. One thing that is clear to me is that there is a huge variation in the quality and value of brass models. Brass of 20 years ago is not the same beast as brass of today. So I think you would be better off with requesting feedback on specific models rather than on brass as a whole.

3

Horror stories? You’re listening to the wrong people. I have a collection of brass, mostly PFM, Westside and Sunset. Most of them are smooth running and good pullers. But the better news is that even a poor runner can be remotored and regeared to become the proverbial Swiss watch. Open frame motors can be replaced with cans, which alone can improve performance. Parts falling off? Not in my experience. The departing parts problem is most common with highly detailed plastic models, but not brass.

And don’t be afraid to dig in and work on brass. With the right tools it isn’t hard and can be most rewarding. Go to Northwest Short Line for motors and gearboxes. Get their wheel puller and a quarterer and you’ll be in business.

Brass is also very good for adding weight. I have a lead filled PRR Decapod which will outpull many locos with traction tires. Same goes for my B&O 4-8-2.

When I need a loco, I look first for brass and buy plastic only when I have to. Brass is more durable, easier to work on and maintains its value better than plastic. So, if you are thinking of brass, go for it!

Tim

4

Well I’m looking for C&O 4-8-4 Greenbriers (J3) , 4-6-4 Hudsons (L1 and L2), 2-8-8-2 (H-7) (They are quite elusive from what I hear), and maybe a 4-6-2 (F19)

I’m trying to kitbash a Bachmann H-5 into an H-6, so I think I’m covered there.

5

No horror stories here, but similar to you, I had a burning desire and nothing existed on the market that helped me get the loco of my dreams. This was a K-28 (D&RGW mikado), HOn3. Tons were made in brass, but not one single K-28 was ever mass produced in plastic or cast metal models that is currently available on the open market. (Low demand, I guess).

Unfortunately, I am horribly and irrevocably spoiled by the D&RGW HOn3 Blackstone models with DCC and Tsunami sound. This meant any brass K-28 that I bought would have to at least equal, in every performance modality, the Blaskstone product. No brass product ever came close. So…

I went on e-bay and waited for a particularly terrible looking PFM United K-28 to show up and didn’t have to wait long. Its paint job looked like it was put on with a pallet knife and then re-painted 3 more times with the same pallet knife. The decaling was an abomination in the sight of God. I won it easily at $225.00! ( no self-respecting MR would have it, I guess).

Upon arrival it was much worse than the image, but ran surprisingly well save for the normal Pitman motor failing to run below 10mph. It drew about .55 amps in my analog DC test runs and .85 amps stall, but like all the old large pitmans, it could drag a brick with no wheels around the layout.

I immediately took it all apart and sunk all the parts in heavy duty paint remover and left for a day. The resulting model was a nice sight in brass. I resoldered a couple of loose and questionable joints.

I spent $109.00 for a super glide M-1 Fanhauber rare earth can motor with flywheel and mounted it to the frame and test ran the brass model on old analog DC. The change in operation was worth $300!!! It drew 80 ma run current and 185ma stall current! Wow! This sucker can now agonizingly, and with velvet smoothness, crawl at 1mph up to a coupler pocket.

I added a headligh

6

Brass Trains has a good selection of C&O steam, including Greenbriers, Hudsons, and Pacifics. Currently, the only articulated is an H-6, but Dan’s always getting new stock, and you can ask him to notify you when something becomes available.
A good friend who has a large collection of brass has dealt with him several times, and recommends both the prices, and the service and selection.

(Not sure why the first link ended-up on its own.) [banghead]

As for brass being finicky, some is and some is very dependable, but all of it can be repaired, modified, re-motored, and re-worked as required.

Wayne

7

I am modeling the 1930’s and my roster includes mainly CN,CPR and GN Railroads.

I was tired of constantly only being offered most of the time American steam engines decaled for these railroads. So, brass became my only option if I wanted to include the correct steam engines in my roster.

My experience with brass is that the old PFM, Sunset, Westside and Oriental imported engines of the late 1980’s are for me the best buys. These engines are usually can engines and run quite smoothly. As another poster commented I have had more pieces fall of the new plastic locomotives than the brass models.

Get yourself a hobby spray paint system and your in business, Painting is not that hard if you go slow, light coats and decent preparation is required.

In terms of cost, the older brass is far cheaper than the new brass models being offered. I can not justify spending 5 or 6 times the money for the newer offerings. Sure the new brass has better detail but unless you are holding it close you can not tell the difference in detail.

Of the brass engines I have purchased in the last year most are ex shelf models, next to no time spent running.

In fact the brass market for the older models is quite good, all of the older baby boomers selling off their collections and of course estate sales.

8

Nice looking K, Richard!

And his experience raises several good points. First, find a deal you’re comfortable with. That way, no matter how things go, you won’t feel it’s a bad investment.

Second, be prepared to work on used brass. It’s not as scary as it seems. In terms of taking locos apart, they’re often as easy or easier than some new plastic locos. As others also mentioned, there are plenty of folks who can give advice and solutions out there for many of the most common problems.

Remotoring is common and DCC installs are pretty straightforward, too. It definitely helps to add wipers everywhere except leading and trailing trucks, but you can usually get away with doing both sides on the tender and just on the Left/black side on the loco (most brass picks up well from Right/red side, but sometimes wipers can help there, too.)

If you’re leery of used brass, then buy new, although it ain’t cheap. My Sunsets came that way, already painted. To me, that’s the toughest thing, painting brass steam. I’ve done rolling stock and diesels, but have let others handle decorating the steam. YMMV.

Find a dealer that offers a good return policy. Don’t expect used or even new stuff to be perfect, but it’s nice to know that you can back out if you find a show-stopper. On the other hand, some of the best deals are on that famous auction site and you often don’t get a return there, although that is changing. If it’s cheap enough, and looks like it’s in one piece, Richard’s experience is typical. Needs work, maybe, but you ended up with good raw material.

Good raw material is a good way to think of most older brass. Division Point has changed that and Blackstone is definitely putting pressures on importers to bring in brass that operates well out of the box. Just don’t expect most things you’ll likely to consider buying to be like the latest Atlas lo

9

As a long time runner of Japanese brass, mostly built from screwdriver kits, I suspect that a lot of the horror stories are urban legends originating with people who were, `Sour grapes,’ about locos they wanted but couldn’t afford, or with people who siezed on a single bad actor to condemn the entire genre.

In my experience, brass is more forgiving than plastic or pot metal. Drives can be adjusted, modified or replaced far more easily than those on, `Integrated with the frame,’ die cast models. Also, the tenders usually have lots of space for a decoder and speakers - or for proper weight for good tracking.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

10

that is why I quit modeling the Great Northern. They have really unique locomotives that will only and always be available in brass.

My experience with brass is that they are just like other models. There are good ones and bad ones. I think a lot of the horror stories are when people are comparing 1960s and 1970s brass with those produced more recently. Around 1979 PFM began a trend of putting can motors, fly wheels, other high quality running gear, and sound systems into their models. Today I would guess that all the manufacturers use can motors.

I don’t know anything about the C&O but perhaps an example from the NP might help. Their was a Sunset 4-6-6-4 Z6 made in the late 1970s it looked good but was really poor runner. For $600 it was questionable. PFM did a run in 1980 or so that really took the model to a new level. On just had to be willing to pay the $1400 for it. The price on the Sunset model dropped like a rock. The price of the PFM unit dropped through the 1980s. I saw one in 1990 or so for $800. The price began to creep back up and then W&R produced their version of the Z6. It is an amazing model I truly thought it was worth the $2400 price tag. This price went up and I’ve seen them go for $3000. Then back to Sunset. They came back and made a new run model of the Z6, I’ve not got to see or run one for myself but it is said they are fine runne

11

TZ brings up a good point about doing research. This works better if you have a specific prototype in mind, as his examples demonstrate.

So where do you find info like that? Road-specific e-mail lists and historical societies, which these days often overlap. Explain your interests and there’s surely someone out there with an opinion, but YMMV[:P]

But that’s why you do want to do some due diligence on a brass purchase. Get multiple opinions. Sometimes you just need to ask if someone might have that certain model sitting around they might want to sell. I’m a narrowgauger, so maybe we’re chummier that way, but I’ve seen a number of people find models on relevant lists over the years just by asking and I have sold a couple, too.

Beyond that, two other things. The Brown Book of Brass is a pretty good guide to what’s out there and a general guide to what pricing might be. Because it’s a book, it’s not going to reflect recent changes, like new, better models being introduced as in TZ’s examples. I’ve got an old one, so outdated, but think there was a recent update on it that was needed.

The other thing to do is to compare ads, prices and availabilities as much as you can. This is not so practical for that rare item, but works well if you’re pricing a Santa Fe 2-8-0 or something else fairly common. That way you’ll have a good idea of the market, what sells and what doesn’t , etc

12

I’ve only heard of some brass pieces that were “horror stories”. Many of the cheaply and quickly manufactured engines from the 50’s through the 70’s had poor motors, poor gearing, poor balance, or all of those problems combined (KMT is one that comes to mind). With the huge selection of parts from Northwest Short Line and some well placed lead, all of these problems are completely fixable. Here’s my collection of brass with my experience:

Samhongsa/Westside 4-4-0 (late 70’s): Excellent detail, super-smooth running. Motor was underpowered but easily replaced. After some simple tuning and a little weight in the back, it was perfect. Value of similar pieces is in the $200 to $350 range.

Tenshodo GP20 (early 60’s): Detail poor, but presentable. Noisy tower gears, but very smooth running. Good quality open-frame motor that’s easily replaced. Value is $50 to $75.

KMT (Kumata)/Alco C630 (late 60’s): Good (but generic) detail. Smooth running, but noisy gears with a lot of slop. NWSL gears and universals are a big help. Value $90 to $150.

Akane 2-8-0 (early 60’s): Decent, hand-made detail. Extremely smooth running with high quality gears and a nice open-frame motor. Just needed a cleaning and a new magnet for the motor (both easy). Value $150 to $200.

KTM (Katsumi)/Ken Kidder 2-6-0 (mid 60’s): Very basic detail (but still nice looking), poor gears, decent (but FAST) motor, but fairly smooth with adjustment. NWSL all the way for these. Value in the $75 to $150 range, since they’re interesting collector’s items. Later steam engines by KTM were amazing from what I hear.

KMT/Soho streetcar (60’s): Nice looking, but lightweight and poor running as-is. The drive trucks can usually be made to run well, but the under-floor motor they made is worthless. With some truck tuning and a new motor, it’s an amazing runner. Prices in the $80 to $150 range.

13

Don.

Some very good advice has already been given and I would just be repeating what others have said. You must be able to tinker and be handy with tools and small screws. Don’t give up on the open frame motors just yet. Cleaning and some super magnets will get the open frame motor to rival the same size can motor. I tuned up a late fifties MB Austin that draws under .75 amp at full throttle. My latest project is a Westside K5 pacific with a large KTM open frame. I just tested the chassis today and it crawls at speed step 1 with a draw of .14 amp. http://s1081.photobucket.com/albums/j348/locoi1sa/K5s%205698%20project

Pete

14

I have been collecting brass, C&O mainly, for 35 years, and can address the specific models you list.

As for the J-3 Greenbrier 4-8-4s there are numerous options, but only a few good ones.

In 1959 and 1960 PFM imported an unmodernized J-3 600-604 that was built by Toby of Japan. These were a little crude, as was typical of the era, but were built like tanks and were very good runners. They were very well proportioned and VERY heavy, having boiler weights that nearly filled the boiler. I have one of these on my roster, and it will pull the studs out of the wall. This would be a prohibitively expensive model if you could find one today.

NJ Custom Brass did a model of the J-3 600-604 that was built by Dong-Jin. It was of average quality, and the gearboxes tended to fail with use. It tended to have cold solder joints that resulted in lose parts, that with handling and use would come off. This model was the pre-WWII, unmodernized configuration, and was nicely detailed and fairly accurate. If you were to purchase this model, I would recommend you do so unpainted, and make any required repairs and alterations prior to paint.

Overland did a modernized version of J-3 #605-606 that was very nicely detailed. It however was of very poor construction quality which was typical of Dong-Jin at the time (1978). Mine were constructed so poorly, they had gaps between boiler courses, and some boiler courses were oval instead of round. The smoke box fronts would not stay in as a result. The hand rails along the boiler were not straight, and there were many cold solder joints. I can not speak to the running qualities of this model, I returned both of mine without them ever turni

15

OK. To continue.

H-7, H-7a 2-8-8-2

No matter which model you chose, you wont be disappointed. The only concern will be your budget, and your era. After the purchase of the H-8 2-6-6-6 began, the H-7 became surplus. 33 of them were sold to other railroads during World War II, and in 1952 when the last ones were scrapped, there were only 11 of the original 45 on the C&Os roster. #1546 was scrapped in 1943.

The NJ Custom Brass H-7 models imported in 1977 and 1983 as part of their “Royale” series were great models. Both were built by GOTO of Japan, and were solidly built, and nicely detailed and proportioned. They had removable cab roofs so the wealth of in-cab detail could be viewed, and painting of the cab interior would be much easier. The 1977 version had a 16,000 gallon Vanderbilt tender. The 1983 version had a 23,000 gallon rectangular tender, and two motors one for each set of drivers. They did not run as well as the later Challenger Imports and Overland imports, but are very good runners with a little tinkering and maintenance. The major flaw with these is that the foam in the box was fast to degrade. This is not an issue if it is kept away from the locomotive by plastic wrap, but if the locomotive and/or tender come into prolonged contact with the degrading foam, damage can result. A slight amount of foam damage can be removed, but pitting of the brass is possible with prolonged contact. Look carefully for this should you find one you are interested in purchasing. These can be found at “reasonable” prices when compared to the Challenger and Overland models.

In 1993 Both Challenger and Overland imported several versions of the H-7 H-

16

along with all the horrer stories,there is the price.you pay a fortune and then you winde up with something that has all of the problems aforementioned. yours johnk

17

Speaking of paying a fortune, I just picked up a Trains Inc. brass U25B at a train show. It was $45.00. Yup. Real expensive. My wallet is so sad now, it’s actually crying. The FBI actually came by my house to try and make me stop paying for such terrible deals, and I’m now on their most wanted list.

*sarcasm switch off

Seriously though, a brass diesel for $45? And it only needs some simple repairs and adjustments from what I can tell? I’d call that a deal.[:D] Brass doesn’t have to be expensive.[:D]

18

Wow,

Thanks for the help all. (Especially your efforts Trace Fork) This gives me a lot to look for, and think about.

19

Trace Fork, I found your responses to be fascinating. If there was ever part of the hobby where generalization is inappropriate it has to be with respect to the brass market. Each model seems to have to be considered on its own merits.

20

After it all has been said above, and in direct response to the original posting, brass is and always will be an option to those folks desparately looking for an engine that has never appeared on the mass market, but has been done in brass. You may have to pay a fortune,… or not…You may have to regear and remotor and repaint and redecal and add details…But, if you have the money or time and verve you can have your engine. The word that caused all this is “desparation” or “lust” for something not to be had on the common MR playground littered with the ever popular common man’s models. Now, just how desparate and lustful are you?

This is not a boost for brass, quite the contrary. I, personally, would much rather have my desired model rendered in solid plastic for $99.50 with details and oprational characteristics far beyond that found on those lovely 1979, 25 unit brass PFM United run of my “must have” loco, but it ain’t happenin’ and I gotta’ itch that’s gotta’ be scratched… Brass is a solution.

If it ain’t in brass, pot metal or plastic, you are going to have to do what those returning MR WWII vets did. Roll up yer cussed sleves and kit bash or scratch build. What are you a model railroader or a railroad modeler…or both?

The ball is in your court…and its just bouncin’

Richard